Working Fathers in Germany: In the Comments of AVFM

We already know what MRA’s think of the work women do in the home. Even though they scream for traditional marriage where women are expected to stay at home, MRA’s won’t acknowledge that women do REAL work to care for the home.

In Germany, fathers are getting the same kind of flexible time that mothers get to help raise the kids and hold down the career. (Thank you Feminism). AVFM didn’t actually thank feminism but a couple commenters pointed out the same old tired notions about working in the home.

Stay at home deal with the chores of of a childs. Because it is challenging, sometimes is heavy, but it is relaxing…a regenerating timewindow away from the real stress and fatigue or “REAL WORK”~Nanocapo69

So going into the public sphere is real work and it’s total relaxation to care for the home. Well, maybe in his little world where he imagines just playing with his kids and forcing his wife to do the laundry, the cleaning, supper and the dishes.

‘I myself consumed the paternity leave, all 12 months of it. It was a necessity because of the family situation, hence I got it. The fun part was shoveling through bureaucracy and an obligatory writ plea, as it was not expected for a man to enjoy it. Only a vague note listing some circumstances.

Financially and career-wise it was a flop, but emotionally and personally it was a clear victory.’~Hlaford

I wonder if this same MRA will take a cut in pay for being out of work on paternal leave (Once again, thank you Feminism) for a year? MRA Guru Warren Farrell explains that women are paid less because they take care of the home and kids. Having flexible hours means your salary goes down and THAT’S the sole reason for the pay gap. It should be interesting to follow the German men to see if their wages are cut because they’re taking advantage of this concept.

Neither men nor women should face a cut in wages because they care for their families but that assumes there is no pay gap and it’s just women’s choices that lead to less pay. I will explore Farrell’s pay gap nonsense in a future post.


4 thoughts on “Working Fathers in Germany: In the Comments of AVFM

  1. Interesting article – yours, that is. I didn’t see the original material because the things those men say and the way they say it disturbs the peace of my mind far too much to subject myself to it.

    I spent about a year living and working in Germany back in the 1990s. I speak German like a native Rhinelander because I went over there to learn it and to really absorb the culture.

    Very few Germans legally marry compared to here in the U.S. (I can’t say anything about Canada because I just don’t know the first thing about the marriage/divorce laws there to make any comparison.) It is very difficult to get a divorce in Germany. It usually takes a year and you may have to go before a judge, etc. While Germans, especially young Germans, are not very religious people, their government is very religious, in my opinion. And, they are very socialist – although, they don’t like to be called socialists (socialist to them means communist) they are, in fact, what we would call socialist here in the U.S. and wages for most jobs are about the same. This was one of the reasons I couldn’t live there long term – I like the idea of making money, accumulating property and wealth. This is not easy to say the least in Germany because of the system there and most of the people who have anything at all inherited it. For instance, most of the landed farmers there actually inherited their property generation after generation since feudal times. And, most of the typical Germans I knew really resented people who had anything, at all, because they did not even have the illusion that they would ever have anything – like people here in the U.S. still do (there is still the illusion of the American Dream, even if it’s just that – although, I think it is still more than just an illusion for many.)

    So, largely because of the way people live in Germany and the difficulty of getting a divorce, most Germans never legally marry, although it’s not uncommon to see couples who have been together since practically childhood. When they do have children, it is not considered socially acceptable to have more than two. There are no formal rules about this, it’s just sort of considered bad manners to have more children than you can take care of – it’s bad for the kids and it’s bad for your fellow citizens who have traditionally lived in close quarters with each other. (Most of the people I knew there grew up in apartment complexes and nearly everybody I knew lived in one – almost no one owned any real property and when they did, it might be an apartment unit. If you owned that, you were doing well!)

    German man-woman relationships are typically more egalitarian than American man-woman relationships, although there is a honeymoon period and there is a general saying that German men make great boyfriends, but lousy husbands because once they have you enslaved, they regress. (Same as here in the U.S., only most American men are not even good dating material – To be totally honest, I don’t even have any men as *friends* here because I don’t trust them as far as I could throw them – there’s lots of misogyny here (I’ve been flat out told, “I don’t hire women” and I’ve been fired for being a woman), lots of fundies, lots of crystal meth, in fact, it’s one of the worst places I’ve ever been for all those things and it’s gotten worse since the economy took a plunge a few years ago. By comparison, German men are much nicer people and I dated a few of them when I was over there. I didn’t go near American men for years and if I were to imbibe now, I still prefer foreigners.)

    Men who are not legally married to their partners and who have a child between them, have some rights in a divorce. But, men who are not legally married have none, whatsoever. They have no visitation rights, they have nothing except the obligation to pay for the child because the German government wants to protect its precious social Netz from parasitic losers – which is totally understandable, of course.

    And, as far as women’s pay. Women who are, for example, engineers – and I knew one – are expected to take jobs working for less than men, simply because they do not have penises.

    Feminists have made some great strides in Germany – much more than here in the U.S. – but, women are still harassed at work, treated badly by men and this includes being paid less for doing the exact same job. And, there is still a big domestic violence problem with men victimizing women and children. (Remember, that many German women are having zero children – breeding is not popular there, so this is not a good excuse for stealing a percentage of a person’s rightful paycheck – still they do it, anyway.)

  2. Adding this: Given the way the state is about legal marriage in Germany, you may have to be a married man to get any benefits, such as time off. I don’t know the answer to the question, though.

    Women in Germany do have rights to their own children, though – so being a mother and not being legally married to anyone, you still have your rights.

    But, the German government isn’t as ridiculous about equal rights for men as they are here in the U.S. – here it’s hard for all women’s schools to exist (so we can learn without harassment and rape) because the men use the laws against us (like Sonia Johnson said in one of her speeches). In Germany, they are more reasonable where women’s rights not to be injured or violated in some way are concerned.

  3. Correcting an error in my first comment – in the third paragraph from the bottom I meant to say that men who *are* legally married have some rights to the children.

    If you are a man and you impregnate a woman *without* permission from the state, you have no rights to the child, but they will prove that it is yours and make you pay for it. You get no visitation, no partial custody, no say in the life of the woman or the child like here in the U.S. This is how it ought to be.

    When men are granted any kind of fatherly “rights” under the law, they use them to abuse the woman – to create a bond with her, etc. Here in the U.S. in some places rapists have “rights” to their children! But, men do not create life – only women can do that. And, they should have no rights except to pay.

    I’m sure AVfM would have some pretty names to call me for saying the truth about that, but I’m tired of hearing about me tossing their children off skyscrapers and going on shooting rampages at women’s workplaces. Besides I thought the MRAs were against having to pay child support… they want to eat their cake and have it to. But, they’re not entitled to anything produced by the body of a woman – whatever it is. It doesn’t belong to them – whether it’s a tumor or menstrual blood or a child, it’s none of their business.


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