A Teachable Moment?

This blog gets tons of MRA comments that never make it through. This particular comment I’m going to publish is indicative of how MRA’s mangle feminism in order to fauxfight. MRA’s need to invent things about feminism in order to make it their enemy.

In response to my post ‘A Voice for Men Admits Raping Women is Part of Male Sexuality’ I got this response:

Andy Koenigs 13h

Sorry but you got this backwards. Feminists believe rape is normal male sexuality. MRAs are trying to put an end to this stereotype.

Could we all use this moment, probably in vain, to teach Andy about rape and rape culture? Now I know it’s not our job to do this but we could also have some fun. I do admit I like toys. Who doesn’t like toys?

Now if dudebro did the slightest bit of research he wouldn’t be so ignorant as to think feminists think all men are rapists and its part of their sexuality. That’s something that AVFM does, not feminists.


26 thoughts on “A Teachable Moment?

  1. Andy is right. Rape is indeed normal male sexuality. It’s been documented a hundred times over how our society tolerates rape. Rape is so common that the inference that men rape because of their biologies can hardly be questioned.

    • MRAs are indeed trying to pretend this is not so. But there is zero evidence. Rape is universal, endemic, engrained in social mores worldwide, ancient, a part of the machinery of coercion and control of women, a terroristic act on the spectrum of violence, a weapon of war, a weapon of hatred, a way women are kept from living full an humsn lives. It is the most tragic of human inventions.

      • That’s something to think about–rape as a human invention. There does not appear to be much rape in what we think of as the animal kingdom. It appears to be a way of directly denying the humanity of women. If it weren’t, men would content themselves with raping a piece of wood or another inanimate object.

        • There is quite a bit of what humans would consider rape in the animal kingdom. (ie: females are not given the ‘right’ to not mate in most cases, though the males must compete to mate the favored female frequently, giving the appearance of choice on the female’s part.) It is indeed the biological nature of the male of any species, including our own. The placement of their seed over their rival’s.

          Mankind does elevate itself above their base nature… sometimes. (My personal fear is that I see a reversal of that when men feel they will not have to pay for that…) I find most who believe in the MRA movement just wish to have it both ways, rights over women, no responsibility for their actions. The one below trying to use Patriarchal Theory (without knowledge of it, obviously- or he would know it has nothing to do with rape, but was a way to keep and protect property within a family- outmoded even in the countries that originated it now…) proves this argument.

  2. I can only say that “MRAs trying to put an end to this stereotype” are delusional. or perhaps, deliberately trying to put forward a damn sickening lie. The universal act of rape continues before, during, and after any media spin.

  3. Let me clarify. Andy is right in stating that rape is part of “normal”
    male sexuality.

    He’s wrong when he states that MRAs don’t agree. They agree, wholeheartedly.

    • Oh, yes, MRAs definitely believe this. That was the point of Hembling’s article. If you’re a woman who believes you should not be raped by men, who opposes this “philosophy,” who opines that you should not be raped, then you are denying men the free exercise of their sexuality.

      That was pretty much the gist of the article – and we see this sentiment echoed throughout the conference anytime a woman or women or feminists oppose being abused by men.

    • Yes, it is men who possess the instrument of rape, the weapon they carry with them everywhere and use on women and girls opportunistically, because they want to, because such violence is, in fact, part of male sexuality. It is impossible to draw the line between their biological urge to rape and their social urge to rape.

      Feminists do not 100% agree about the nature of men’s tendency to rape. The most hopeful among us think it’s mainly social, that men can be trained not to rape.

      But, that’s only going to mitigate the problem a little, in my opinion. Male sexuality revolves around hurting women, even in the best circumstances. Male sexuality represents and invasion of women’s bodies.

      This is all true and the Men’s Rights Movement does not deny it. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

    • Some people have said that AVfM and the MRM, as a whole, possess many of the classic characteristics of a cult and they most certainly do. One cult characteristic is the tendency to have one way and certain things they say to outsiders and prospects and then they have another way once you’re on the inside of the group.

      They, also, have certain pre-programmed statements that they make, automatically, without thinking, in response to certain statements. If you go to the comments section of any article that isn’t completely overrun with MRAs and you find them arguing with normal people, you see the same pre-programmed responses to certain stimuli. For instance, whenever men raping women is brought up, they’ll mention how more men are raped in prison. The responses are usually very predictable.

      This is an example of how they communicate with outsiders. But, when they’re communicating with their own, they really let their hair down (strictly a figure of speech, especially in Hembling’s case!).

  4. Well, my personal theories about men and rape aside, there is evidence that teaching boys and men what consent is cuts the rate of reported rapes. There is the Edmonton case and I think I read about another instance somewhere. So, we know men – at least, some of them – can be taught not to be rapists.

    My personal theories are just my personal theories simply because I seem to have had the misfortune of running into a lot of men who are rapists – so I know lots of them are, in fact, rapists. I don’t believe all of them are, though. And, a large part of the raping tendency has to do with the patriarchal social constructs that exist in every country and every culture.

    From a personal point of view, I don’t care why men rape. I see this as a man’s problem – a true “men’s issue.” They’re the only ones who can change their violent behaviors.

    • Well, it is womens’ problem insofar as we are the ones who are raped. I remember when I was in junior high school, and the horrific sexual bullying from the boys made me wonder why there wasn’t a course solely dedicated to teaching boys how to respect girls. When the Robert Bly-led ‘men’s movement’ made its appearance in the late 1980s, for a brief moment I was elated–“men have noticed that their emotion lives are incredibly stunted!” In a flash, the whole thing turned into the ugly “men’s rights movement”–with a detour into “father’s rights”–that we are so familiar with today.

      • Yes, this is true.

        I had to high school experiences.

        One was at a public school that was so violent, including almost daily sexual assault and one instance in which I thought I was going to be gang raped by four huge adult “boys” who were probably held back a couple of years.

        The second one was at a private school. The difference between the two was night and day. We never had a single sexual assault that I’m aware of. So, boys can, apparently, grow up knowing not to sexually assault or abuse girls – or, at least, can learn to restrain themselves while there at school. The Catholic teaching is against violence – so we did learn in classes that violence of any kind was morally wrong in our classes. So, maybe this is why there was so little of it. Those kids had been through that system from the time they were very, very young.

        I don’t know exactly what the public schools are doing wrong, but I do know I dealt with sexual assault at the age of 5 from two 5-year old boys, also abuses from boys like kicking me in the legs repeatedly right in front of the teacher after we’d all been told not to talk. Now, when you threaten and terrify 5-year olds and tell them not to talk, then let the boy’s physically abuse (kick) girls right in front of you, what message are you sending. Shut up, girls and take a beating and a sexual assault. I learned this at age 5 and so, I’m sure, did the predators.

        • Interestingly, I also found that the one year I spent in Catholic high school was the best out of them all. This was an unusually liberal school which was later whipped back into conservative shape after I had graduated.
          When I was working as a historical site guide, among the school groups (around ages 11-12) that came was one from an all-girls school–half the girls dressed as boys (in keeping with the request for all the kids to dress in a facsimile of historical outfits) and they did a fantastic imitation of boy behavior, while the whole group demonstrated an extraordinary intelligence and willingness to share their ideas which was not quite the same as a mixed group of boys and girls–there was virtually no sense of fear in the group.

      • I have to conclude based on my public school experience that the school are in part responsible for teaching boys to be aggressive toward girls.

        There were other instances I can think of where boys were held to a lower standard – not only in terms of discipline, but in terms of academic performance. Female teachers heaped praise on boys sometimes for no real reason, but girls were just expected to work hard and not expect any special attention.

        Boys seemed to demand attention in most cases and they act up when they don’t get it – and this is why to this day we cannot work with them in groups of any kind. They always revert and act like children at meetings when there are many women present or they simply try to take over and run things.

      • (My third reply to you… sorry about that!)

        But, it is a men’s problem in the sense that why they do it is something that only they know. We are not to blame for their violence – it’s something in men that only they can fix.

        If we were to somehow put ourselves out of their way, so they had no girls or women to rape, they would just start raping each other – which is what they do in prison when they lose access to women’s bodies.

  5. Yeah, it’s a men’s problem. So are so many of the problemz MRAs talk about – things to be talked about and resolved among men, in which women have never been involved and on whom there is no impact. Men have a domination/class problem. They do it to each other. Men rape each other – almost no women are involved. Men make war. What can I say – there is no human action more destructive and despicable that that. men have so much to answer for.

    Among the MRAs we have the despicable Fidelbogen. Where is he these days? He stopped making vids this winter. Can’t he take the skihat off? Would it reveal a specific receding hairline? This fool set himself up as a thinker, trying to give theoretical legitimacy to the fools at AVFM. Now he has disappeared. The men who didn’t attend the detroit conference are a pretty big group. Was Fidelbogen outed here? http://avoiceforcreepymen.blogspot.com/

  6. The distinction, it seems, comes in between whether or not you believe in Patriarchy Theory. If you don’t, then saying, “Teach men not to rape” is a charge saying that all men are rapists by default, and need to be taught otherwise. If you don’t believe in Patriarchy Theory, then it’s basically, “Undo the teachings of patriarchy, which encourage men to rape even if they wouldn’t do so otherwise.” While JtO may not be understanding the feminist position on this one, it seems the feminists aren’t understanding the MRA position either. You want them to believe in Patriarchy Theory, but they don’t. So when you say, “Teach men not to rape”, they hear, “All men are rapists.” Unless you can convince them of patriarchy theory, that won’t stop.

    Either way, it’s a bigoted thing to say. If there’s a culture of violence and crime in the black community, a Crime Theory if you will, that still wouldn’t justify saying, “Teach blacks not to murder and steal.” That would still be a useless and bigoted statement. Unless you disagree?

    • Patriarchy isn’t a belief. It’s a social system. Feminist analysis is much more detailed than you say. There’s still a rape culture, without patriarchy. Understanding rape culture within patriarchy is an even more complex analysis. Comparing this to black Americans is what MRA’s do, wrongheadedly. It’s not bigoted to point out a power structure. Comparing that to a minority is laughable. So LOL @ you.

      MRA’s will always think they’re rapists because they’re too fucking silly to grasp feminist analysis. Like you. In fact, you just made my point.

      • He made your point because he’s probably an MRA – who else says something like “Patriarchy Theory!” LOL!

        Funny thing! I’ve never been scared in a “black community” because of black people. I have been damn near murdered by men for no reason other than that I am a woman and it’s apparently fun for men to enact what they learn from video games and porn out on random women.

        White dudes llke to point their fingers everywhere except at themselves. The biggest crime wave in this country is white men! But, when they’re not scapegoating women, it’s racial minorities or immigrants.

        • Funny thing! I’ve never been scared in a “black community” because of black people.

          This. I’ve lived in racially diverse neighborhoods my entire life. The most intimidated I ever felt was while in the company of a WHITE MALE COP.

    • Either way, it’s a bigoted thing to say. If there’s a culture of violence and crime in the black community, a Crime Theory if you will, that still wouldn’t justify saying, “Teach blacks not to murder and steal.” That would still be a useless and bigoted statement. Unless you disagree?


  7. I have been interacting with other Feminists my entire life, from the time that my older sister explained the concept to me when I was very young. I almost never encountered the idea that rape is part of normal male sexuality. Of course one can find folks who hold almost any opinion within a particular group.

    I think that it is very important that even if one believes that rape is partially driven by biology and evolution, that does not make it “normal”. There are many behaviors that are driven by a human beings genes are not “normal”.

    • Under the ‘right’ circumstances, rape or racism will manifest more easily. This might be a good time to think about the socio-economic circumstances we are presently living in, and how they are facilitating phenomena such are the MRA.


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