Why I’m A Radical Feminist: OPEN THREAD Without MRA’s UPDATED

I went to a comment section over the weekend and had this exchange. Now it’s a bit long but worth the read. Excuse the formatting but it’s a copy/paste and such. I also will have filtering on so if some comments don’t go through right away it’s because I’m trying to keep MRA’s out as best as I can. Oh, and I’m ‘Joy’ in the comments and the dude is ‘Ancuwen.’ I updated it because the mansplainer returned and replied.

A couple of female commenters, Wendy and chiiill, have expressed they are happily in relationships with men. One of the things MRA’s and other male supremacists like to do is say feminists hate men. This is clearly not true. Andrea Dworkin, an amazing radical feminist, was married happily.

Granted there are some women, like myself, who for political and personal reasons will not have a sexual relationship with men but it’s NOT the only relationship you can have with a person.

I have male friends. They’re just very few and far between and I don’t see them sexually so it removes much of the problem. Men who can carry on a great friendship with me are far more valuable to ME.

I consciously choose to have sexual relationships strictly with women but there is ONE man who I did have a sexual relationship with and who I fell in love with.

This whole ‘manhater’ line is just a cop out projection that they use to woman hate.

“I consciously choose to have sexual relationships strictly with women”

You consciously choose? Erm… so rather than just never feeling attracted towards any man, you are sometimes attracted to a man but you consciously decide against following that attraction? That doesn’t appear very healthy to be perfectly honest

  • Isn’t it my choice who I have sex with? Or do I not have that right? Here’s where someone psychobabbles me that if I don’t follow an attraction, assuming I have an attraction to begin with, I must be sick!

    This is where the conversation breaks down because someone just can’t understand that the personal is political. This is a staple feminist concept. I don’t have to sit here and justify my sexual choices but apparently, it’s just not right if a woman chooses not to have sexual relationships with men!

Please don’t get defensive. I didn’t say that you don’t have the right, I simply said that consciously deciding against your own feelings of attraction doesn’t appear very healthy.

So tell me how making a conscious choice to refrain from sex with men isn’t healthy. If you’re willing to diagnose me with being unhealthy you best be sure to explain to me, where your brilliant analysis comes from.

Show me how it’s unhealthy to choose not to have sex with males. Oh and also tell me how you ASSUME I am even attracted to men sexually? Please dude, explain.

“Show me how it’s unhealthy to choose not to have sex with males.” – Not the point, and it’s not at all what I said or even remotely implied. In my humble, gut-level opinion, it is unhealthy (as in: emotionally unsustainable) to make conscious decisions against one’s feelings.

“brilliant analysis” – There is really no need to get defensive. I was carefully phrasing the core point of my comment as a question to make doubly sure that I hadn’t just misunderstood your original post. Then I offered my own personal opinion, that is all.

    • Oh so if I have a feeling I want to murder someone I should just do it right because it’s emotionally desiring.

      If I’m a diabetic I should just eat the candy cuz emotions!

      Ah, I see. You pulled it from your ass. That makes sense.

      You are part of the reason why I don’t have sex with males. You EXPECT women to be there for you sexually and when we DON’T show interest in fucking you immediately call us unhealthy.

      • If you ever truly have the feeling that you want to commit murder, you should seek professional help. If you feel like indiscriminately eating candy as a diabetic, you should seek professional help. If you feel like sleeping with a man, then there is nothing inherently wrong with that feeling.

        Please re-read your own comment. You just equated your own desire to sleep with a man with the urge to commit murder or seriously harm yourself by ignoring a physical condition. Your comparison falls apart where your two examples carry inevitable negative consequences regardless of anything else, whereas sleeping with a man does not carry inevitable negative consequences.

        “You are part of the reason why I don’t have sex with
        – Judging other men on the basis of our little exchange here is, well, not very healthy either. That’s a bit like getting a movie suggestion from a friend, not liking the movie, and subsequently never listening to any movie suggestions from any friend ever again. Let me make myself clear: When I say “not healthy” in this context, I mean “a bit silly”.

        “You EXPECT women to be there for you sexually and when we DON’T show interest in fucking you immediately call us unhealthy. – That is not at all the case, and you have no basis for saying that. I’m actually the kind of guy who won’t take yes for an answer.



    No. YOU said emotions drive us and we should always follow them. That’s why I gave you those examples.

    Oh so because YOU don’t think there are negative consequences then there must be NO negative consequences! I’m glad you mansplained that to me or else I never would’ve thought about it.

    Dude, you are the prime reason why I’m a feminist. You hide behind MRA’s who are just more openly misogynist but when a woman expresses no interest in fucking men, it’s a GOD DAMNED HEALTH CRISIS!

    You’re actually the kind of guy who uses casual conversations on the internet to deflect and yet at the end you blame me for ‘not knowing you.’

    Dude, I’m sure you’ll get plenty of upvotes for putting me in my unhealthy place where I don’t give teh menz sexy time. I know it bothers you so much that YOU are the one that HAD to comment to me and tell me I’m having a health crisis because ‘SHE DON’T FUCK MEN!’

    Oh noes!1111 A woman who doesn’t fuck men. This is really bad. It warrants men coming to the rescue to tell me how damaged I am.

    You’re a joke dude. If you have any inkling of feminism you’re surely not displaying it. ANd he’s going to continue to mansplain to me because wimminz don’t know their own self!

    • “YOU said emotions drive us and we should always follow them” – I never said anything of the sort. I simply offered my opinion that it is unhealthy to continuously consciously choose against one’s feelings.

      “Oh so because YOU don’t think there are negative consequences then there must be NO negative consequences!” – Nope, not what I wrote. Does sleeping with men carry negative consequences inevitably, in every case, and by its very nature, like murder or ignoring your medical condition do?

      “but when a woman expresses no interest in fucking men, it’s a GOD DAMNED HEALTH CRISIS!” – You wrote that you have the desire to sleep with men, if very rarely, but that you consciously decide against it on personal and political grounds. If you truly have no desire to sleep with a man, that’s another thing entirely and I would never judge anyone for their innate desires. What piqued my interest is that you clearly said that you consciously decide against your own feelings. That is what I personally would call “unhealthy”, as in: “a bit silly”.

      “A woman who doesn’t fuck men.” – Don’t you see how your original post above begs the question of why you consciously opt against your own desire? That’s all I asked about. Don’t have sex with men if you don’t feel like it. But not having sex with someone you desire on political grounds, that, again, is a little bit silly. In my humble opinion.

      I have more feminism in my left ballsack than you have in your entire screwed up exuse for a personality.

    You’re no better than an MRA.

    On Mansplaining:

    And the fact that you had a chance to learn something here was very potent and it went right over your head. You couldn’t just apologize and understand where you went wrong because no man anywhere will apologize for his privilege of being able to psychologically mansplain women for their own conscious choices and tell women they’re ‘doing it wrong.’

    On Entitlement:

    Listen dude, me not fucking men doesn’t beg any question. What it DOES do it show me who the entitled males are in the room. It shows me that women cannot self determine their own sexuality because some male thinks it’s ‘UNHEALTHY’ if we choose not to sleep with ANY man, NOT even YOU.

    On Patriarchy and Privilege:

    That’s what feminists call patriarchy. You know you’ll never sleep with me but if other men can’t well then, you have to make sure you shame me for not allowing men sexual access. You’re ensuring other men’s privilege to have my intimate sexuality even though I clearly said ‘NO Thanks.’

    The fact you don’t think I should OWN my own body, that it HAS to be accessible by males sexually for my SELF to be healthy is the problem.

    Then when someone points out to you that you’re the dipshit you get angry with them because dammit that woman on a comment section has to open her legs for men somehow!

    Well I don’t, and I don’t need a lecture by a silly privileged male who thinks he’s all that putting down MRA’s when he’s the bigger problem because he’s more insidious, more covert about his privilege and misogyny.

    Eat rocks dude.

    • “You’re no better than an MRA.” – Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing about you. If you were a guy, you’d be an MRA. That’s why you can never be an actual feminist. You are only interested in yourself, just like MRAs.

      “On Mansplaining” – I had never heard that term before, I’m not big on internet jargon. So that’s one thing I learned. Interesting is that you appear to honestly have convinced yourself that I somehow owe you an apology, after your barrage of tirades and f-bombs and making things up which I never said and tons of insults which you pulled out of thin air. The chance to learn is yours, and so far you have squandered it miserably.

      “Listen dude, me not fucking men doesn’t beg any question.” – Why the coarse language all the time? Oh, sorry, there I go again, being a person giving honest feedback to others. How evil of me. Anyway, yes it does. You said that you don’t have sex with men, which in and of itself is perfectly fine by me (I’m feeling generous). What piqued my curiosity is that you said that you’re not avoiding sex with men simply because you’re not into men, but that you consciously decide against it. That’s where I have questions, like: Why? And if you don’t feel like discussing these questions, you could have just said that. Or, you know, you could have just never mentioned the details of your private life that you don’t wish to be discussed. Just a thought.

      “you have to make sure you shame me for not allowing men sexual access” – I am close friends with several lesbian women, most of whom have never had sex with a man. Those of them who share my particular brand of humor know how to take it when I’m teasing them about it, just like my humor-capable male gay friends know how to take it when I tease them about never having sex with women. It’s all in friendly spirit, and those who don’t like humor are not my friends. So, where and how exactly am I “shaming” you? By being curious about a detail of your life which you gratuitously mentioned on the internet?

      “The fact you don’t think I should OWN my own body, that it HAS to be accessible by males sexually for my SELF to be healthy is the problem.” – Exactly! And since I never even remotely implied any of that, and all of it is taking place exclusively inside your own head, that means the problem is located inside your head.

    DISCUSS radfems?



    39 thoughts on “Why I’m A Radical Feminist: OPEN THREAD Without MRA’s UPDATED

    1. I could be wrong but it looks like you’re bisexual. I see no problem with deciding to have relationships strictly with women. As for not following through with your attraction to men when you do feel attraction, it’s not necessary to have sex with everyone you are attracted to. It’s not like you’re lying by denying the attraction, so it’s not unhealthy. Sexual relationships with men do have risks, including pregnancy. And the dude very strongly implies that sexual relationships with women are somehow “less than” those with men or that sex with women isn’t “really sex.”

      • I can’t edit my reply, but I wanted to add: dudes like him always make it sound like it’s a “waste” if you are either a bisexual who decides at some point to be strictly with women, or a lesbian. WTF.

    2. I’m in a similar position as House Mouse Queen. I’m technically bisexual, but I make the choice to only be with women. I have a female partner and I always will. I call myself a lesbian because there is simply no need to mention any attraction to men—it’s irrelevant at this point. When I was a teenager and young adult, I did sleep with a few men, and it was somewhat enjoyable, but I found that men always believe it’s about them. Sex starts with their arousal and ends with their orgasm, and the only point in my arousal was so that I’d be wet enough for them to fuck me. They usually didn’t notice or care whether I had an orgasm. Combine that with men’s inability to share their feelings and inability to empathize with women or relate to us as if we are equal, and I’m just not interested. I’ve always had an orgasm (or several) with a woman, and no woman has ever had a hard time understanding my body.

      As for this dude’s belief that we should not suppress our sexual attractions, yes we absolutely should in some cases. The belief that we should act on all of our sexual impulses come from porn. There are many cases where people should not act on their attractions, such as when you’re attracted to your friend’s partner, when you’re attracted to a coworker, when you’re attracted to your teacher or your student, etc. People can feel attraction in a variety of situations but we only act on it when it would be ethical to do so. This is not unhealthy, it is actually healthy. A healthy person decides when to act on an attraction and when not to, based on what is the right thing to do.

      This dude thinks he knows feminism better than a feminist does, but he barely has any idea what feminism is. He can’t understand anything outside of his male version of reality.

    3. I am absolutely DISGUSTED by men. I can’t look at a TV program (In fact, I don’t have TV because it is all sexually overcharged patriarchal garbage), I can’t hear a radio program many times, if it’s a man’s voice. This comes from being raped more times than I can remember, and living under constant, on-going threat from men. I’m thoroughly repulsed by them.

      I am a radical feminist because I recognize that the only way that the tyrannical system we live under at this time is going to be eradicated is if it is literally pulled up by it’s roots and destroyed.

      I have my own ideas about how to further humanity and help humanity reach its heights in science, technology, the arts and to improve every aspect of life for all people. Hint: It doesn’t include men.

      I don’t really hate men because that would be a waste of my energy. They’re not worth actively hating and I can’t even get angry at them anymore. I lost that ability a while back. But, I am utterly repelled by them and want nothing, whatsoever, to do with them.

      I am amazed at how many people, including women, think that this is somehow their business – I’m not using my reproductive organs correctly, apparently – and they want to straighten me out. The comment exchange in this blogpost is probably pretty typical. I think I’ve had some similar comments from busybodies who’ve commented at this blog fairly recently. It’s amazing to me. Never in my whole life have I met someone who was of any sexual orientation or another and thought to myself, “They’re not doing the right thing with their sex organs, I’m going to straighten them out or, at least, give them some friendly advice about what they should be doing.” Maybe this is something new.

    4. I’m too cautious to discuss sex online, but I will say — of all the sex partners I’ve had in my life, mythago had the tiniest dick and never took a shower.

    5. Oh, er, hi mythago. I didn’t know you were here, since MRAs aren’t invited. But since you’re here, I hear you’ve been seen on the local trail again recently, masturbating and scaring little girls. And from the photos they took, you better see a doctor right away for that … uhgjjjhhhh ….thing.


    6. Sorry, everybody, (except our MRA troll mythago). I got annoyed at him posting just to show MRAs are watching on a thread where they’re specifically not allowed. I realize he’s not worth the trouble.

    7. OK, I’ll carry on by quoting you here:


      “Mythago June 19, 2014 at 8:39 am · ·
      I despise feminism since I really believe in equality, remember, the mra’s are a result of feminism. No it has nothing to do with fearing independent women, but it has to do with systemic inequalities that are present that only help women. If you are really interested in equality start calling for the end of women’s only scholarships in secondary education, since that assistance has helped women (60% of uni pop is female) through your writing and hopefully you will publicly condemn the violent actions of feminists who pull fire alarms when people assemble peacefully among many other odious actions. Mra’s aren’t the problem, big red ( and her Ilk which are legion) are the problem. Good luck.”

      Did you post that?

    8. Women, consider the parallels here with Ms. Queen’s encounter. The man first responds neutrally, but she smokes him out. It’s a particular type of MRA troll style.

      Same with mythago and his lols.

      I saw the video of the woman who shouted at MRAs again recently, referred to disparagingly by mythago in the quote of his that I posted above.

      She was magnificent.

      As for women doing extremely well obtaining undergraduate and graduate degrees, now that artificial patriarchal impediments to their progress have been removed,

      Brava! Carry on!

    9. I got rid of dumbass. So we can carry on.

      I think V got it right ‘smokin em out’

      Indeed, it seems that’s what my comment did. Imagine the horror! the Horror at me not sleeping with men! The HORROR!

      • Yes, the horror of a man being denied the opportunity to stick his thing in a woman’s body!

        And, the exceedingly shocking violence of a fire alarm being pulled somewhere!

        Will this nightmare of feminism never end!!!

          • All right. Thanks for asking.

            Somewhat predictably, I thwarted an attempted burglary at my house a few nights ago. He came over here at 2:05 a.m. and got into part of my house. (I have since better secured that area – it’s the new construction. I just got it built less than 24-hours before the intrusion.) I think he was looking for tools to steal – that’s just my best guess for why he would be here. There were some items in my driveway, but I scared him off (I heard him open a door, basically right beneath my feet! He’s very brazen because he had to know I was awake because a lot of lights were on in my house and he certainly knew I was home.) – for now. I’m afraid he may be back at any time and I’m worried he might just bust through one of my windows. I am ever-ready – more than usual. But, I am basically okay.

            • I’m pretty sure it was the wife-beater I mentioned to you a few days ago in your open thread in which I was accused by a couple of your commenters of being angry and confrontational because I asked what the non-extreme solution to dealing with the ongoing threat of male violence against women would be. I told the story of what happened and asked what would be a non-extreme solution or how feminists could be compared to those who want to rape, rob and kill us.

              He figured out that I live alone. (Before his woman came over here all beat up, I don’t think they knew who lived here. I now believe it was a mistake for me to have let her in my door, but at the time I didn’t think I had much choice. She looked like walking death, she was scared and needed help.

              learned from another source that he is being supported by his mom and his only other income seems to be what he can steal and sell. According to his victim (who is back living with him), he’s also involved with drugs.

              There’s more to this… I just don’t think I should say publicly. It’s pretty damned scary. And, like I said, it’s largely predictable. I’m really afraid he’s going to come back and a guy like this isn’t just going to steal stuff – he gets off on beating women unconscious and doing who knows what else, but I think I can guess. He doesn’t seem to mind that I am home and awake. I am anticipating a home invasion sometime in the course of the next few weeks or months.

              Men are parasites – dangerous, violent parasites. All I see around me is mountains of evidence to support that statement.

            • Ah so he’s THAT guy.

              Isn’t it so hard when we try to help our female comrades out and it turns into such a liability? I got very sad at reading that.

              What many MRA’s and men don’t know is how FULL the domestic violence shelters are. MRA’s like to think feminists are manufacturing violence for money but they really are ignorant as to how shelters actually work, probably because they’ve never experienced violence and many of them have battered women and are just mad she got away to a shelter.

              Shelters are crowded places and space is so incredibly limited. We need MORE money for women, not less.

              The lady you helped must’ve told him where you lived. That’s truly sad too.

              In my experience shelters are super reinforced with security and every cop in the neighbourhood knows whre it is and watches day and night.

              You should never give out addresses because men feel entitled to penetrate the space with no regard to anyone.

          • I couldn’t reply where I wanted to, so I’m replying to this comment.

            Also, with regard to the shelters, I don’t think people understand how unpleasant and scary those places are. When I brought up the idea of a shelter run by an acquaintance to her, she looked even more terrified. She said she had had that experience before. Apparently, being beaten unconscious from time to time is preferable. She did not want to go to a shelter.

            Some people talk about shelters like they are the answer to the problem. They aren’t. They are, as Dworkin said, “emergency measures.” There is a larger, underlying problem that has to be solved. If we had a gazillion well-funded shelters, this would not be a solution to why a woman cannot be in her own home with a man present and not be raped and beaten to a bloody pulp!

            It is unreasonable to expect that women should have to go to a shelter… she has as much right to be in her own home as he does.

            I’m trying to understand why he’s not in jail given a series of events, which I don’t feel at liberty to describe. But, I know the answer in one word: Patriarchy.

            It’s a man’s world and perps have more rights than their victims. That’s the scariest part of this whole thing. Not the beatings, the raping, the home invasions and so on, but knowing the nature of the system we live in. That’s what I find most terrifying.

            • Now, I’m replying to myself.

              Another thing on shelters: Not everybody can access a shelter. For instance, this is a rural area and if your abuser has complete control of you, has your phone, has taken all your money and possessions and you have no access to a car of your own, then you literally have no way of getting to a shelter. There are no subways, taxis or buses out here in the middle of friggin’ nowhere and walking 30 miles over hill and dale to an uncertain shelter situation would not be an option. Chances are, you’d be abducted and raped by some other random, self-entitled man before you arrived there, anyway.

              Also, the only shelter I know of here is run by religious people. They seem sort of nice (I’m scared of Jesus freaks, so I may be being overly generous here while trying to be fair), but also very fanatical-seeming religious people. A lot of times, religious people won’t help anyone who won’t accept the redeeming blood of Jesus or, at least, put up with all the preaching. For anyone who came from a spiritually abusive Christian background, this is not going to be an appealing option – even if an endangered woman could physically get there.

              A lot of the shelters in the U.S. are run by some kind of religious charity, although they may receive government funding. I just happen to know a religious woman who runs a home for women and children on the run. I don’t even know if this woman could take on another tenant or would be willing to do so, since she does not have a child.

              Just as an exercise, I looked up to see if there are any women’s shelter’s listed in my area and the only one listed is run by a Protestant Christian group in a city, which is over an hour from here.

              Again, it is not realistic to believe that women can magically click their ruby red slippers together and somehow arrive at a women’s shelter when they are basically being held captive and isolated by their abusers and have no way to get to one.

              And something else, when you’re being raped or receiving a concussion every few days, it is very difficult to think straight. This is nightmare situation – there is no horror movie out there that conveys what it’s like to have a violent criminal hell bent on harming you in your own home, day and night, and you either can’t get out or you can’t get him out fast enough. I’ve been there, got the t-shirt and I’m never EVER going back.

            • There are probably more but they’re not listed in the pb.

              I totally agree with you that women shouldn’t have to leave their homes. This is the law in Canada.

              You’d just love Liz Sheehy’s book ‘Battered WOmen on Trial.’

              She explains that law very well and how women can stand their ground and kill if necessary. She wants women not to have to plead to a lesser charge of manslaughter if they kill their partners in self defense.

              As it is now, many women who have killed the man who was going to kill them are pleading down from Murder 1 to Manslaughter. The court knows she killed in self defense but wants to give her some sort of sentence so it goes on the books.

              Sheehy is trying to change that legislation.

            • That sounds like an interesting book. I will take a look at it. I think you did a post about it way-way back on this blog, if it’s the same author.

              The problem I can see is that we need a mental shift on the part of the cops, judges and people, in general. Shelters are just for emergencies. They are not any real solution. Furthermore, the abuser just finds another victim, and another…

              This expectation that women should have to run by virtue of the fact that we possess vaginas is a huge part of the problem at its foundation, I believe.

              It’s not reasonable and there are many reasons why it is often not possible, including the fact that itis in the course of running that an abuser is most likely to murder a woman. Shelters and women running as a solution to men’s violence toward women in the home is as much a liberal fantasy as the belief that you can just escape out your back door or hide under your bed and turn invisible, if you have an armed intruder intent on harming you. It’s magical thinking. It can’t be applied to many actual situations that women are in – nor should it be a woman’s obligation to escape an abuser. The abuser ought to be in some way prevented from doing further harm to women. Otherwise, he continues to be part of a never-ending problem.

            • Yeah, running away is the time when men will kill you. I hope Sheehy is successful in changing this so that women can claim self defense and not have to plead to the manslaughter. Speaking of verdicts in cases, that lunatic Oscar Pistorius was LET OFF for murdering his gf. You see, nobody else was there and since he murdered her he’s the only viewpoint we have. I couldn’t beleive it. The women’s groups in SA are fuming over the verdict. He did get a charge ‘of negligence’ in causing her death but probably won’t see a day in jail.

              He’s the SA OJ Simpson. Famous athlete, control freak, gun nut, batterer, jealous, unstable, entitled etc. Gets involved with a wonderful independent woman who isn’t really going to take his shit much longer so in a jealous rage shoots her dead and then claims he thought she was an intruder in the home.

              I swear we need to change some laws. This idea that men can kill like this with impunity has to go. I also think the evidentiary standards in rape cases need to be changed to preponderance standards. We really can’t convict rapists under the harsher standard. Plus, changing the standard would make rape something men would have to think about instead of not worrying about their behaviour because they know they can just get on the stand and say ‘she wanted it.’

              The men are really in a stink over having to get just a little more aware of sexual assault on campus. They are really screaming about it. I’m glad. They’re the ones doing most of the raping. We women are tired of being the ones having the full burden. But my word if you ask a man to take a small amount of that burden he loses his shit.

              Be aware. That’s the message. Be aware. Don’t coerce women to sleep with you. Have some tact and intelligence of how the dynamic really works. Not too much to ask but you’d think the new law asked men to jump off a cliff. LOL Poor dudez.

            • Yes, the Pistorious verdict was predictable – very sadly. I’m sure he knew he would never be held accountable for her murder, which is why he did it. His intruder in the bathroom story was absurd. But, he was used to getting away with breaking the law.

              I’ve heard the head dudebro from AVfM whining because a man on a college campus somewhere thought twice about not committing rape because he was afraid of getting caught. The college dude in question was probably theoretical. But, instead of sticking his dick in a woman on campus, he decided to just go home. Oh, the horror!

              What’s disturbing was that some of them decided that instead of raping on campus, they would seek off-campus victims. This is not a good solution.

              It’s pretty amazing how they think they are going to shrivel up and die if they don’t get to stick it in a girl or woman’s body. This is “men’s rights” because this is exactly what they believe it is their right to do and when it is suggested to them that maybe they don’t rape or avoid situations in which their victims will interpret their actions as rape (in other words, “don’t rape”) they scream like banshees.

              I don’t foresee any big changes anytime soon in the U.S. Men and many women here are going in reverse in terms of human rights for women at a frightening pace right now. This country is much more dangerous for women now than it was in the ’80s or ’90s.

            • The verdict might be appealed. we’ll see.

              Gerrie Nel the prosecutor has his sights on Pistorius and he really did a great job at trial.

              I’ve heard of the MRA thing where it’s too difficult for men not to rape and they’ve gotta go off campus to rape. I know, pretty sleazy eh?

    10. Wow, does he try to have sex with every single person he’s attracted to? Really? Even I don’t do that. I wonder if he would say it would be unhealthy for me to refuse to date people who aren’t vegetarians, even though I still find some of them attractive. I guess I shouldn’t ever consider anything about what I want out of a potential sexual relationship. Can’t decide on only having sex with women either because it’s silly to want to avoid pregnancy 100% or want more orgasms (things other people brought up). Or any other reason. Using my brain and making rational choices on what kind of people I want to have sex with is unhealthy.

    11. About the Sheehy book and her idea that women should not plead to manslaughter when their real defense is self-defense:

      I’ve been thinking about some of the assumptions underlying all that.

      First and foremost, women are socialized not to defend themselves. We freeze. We are too stunned to react. We are shamed, shamed not just because our grand romantic illusion is shattered, but shamed on behalf of someone we love acting like a monster. We are terrified, because someone we love in this monster mode has struck us, and if we try to defend ourselves, who knows what madness will strike him and what he will do then?

      The first time it happens, we can only think, some dreadful madness struck him. We have compassion. We forgive.

      When it happens many times, we see that we are being slowly killed. At first, again, we are overwhelmed by shame and compassion and shock, as we are socialized to be.

      Over a long period of abuse, a few of us fight back, not just symbolically, with a swat or a word that gets us put back into the hospital, but by doing real damage. We are overcoming our conditioning and acting like we believe we are full human beings who don’t have to take abuse.

      We may be arrested at that point. Then the System steps in. We receive some sympathy, but tempered with the understanding that no woman may do harm to a man without paying for it. We accept manslaughter as a plea-bargain.

      Some research needs doing here. There are certain mitigating circumstances in certain crimes in which a District Attorney’s office (in the U.S.) has a policy of offering a reduced sentence. This is interesting because there are other circumstances in other crimes where the accused never gets offered a plea bargain. There are further policies with other crimes where the case is quietly dismissed. It is a matter of policy and discretion how a D. A.’s office handles a particular frequently-occurring set of mitigating circumstances.

      In the case of a woman using self-defense against a long-term abuser, I believe that women and their attorneys are wrongly accepting an old, meretricious policy that requires the woman to “pay” and imposes the frightening alternative that she must stand trial for murder and possibly lose to a capricious jury decision.

      I think the point of objections and protests here must be the public prosecutors’ in-house discretionary policies which require women with good self-defense cases to plea-bargain into jail time.

      Also, womens’ lawyers must protest these policies.

      And women in this difficult situation must ask themselves if they want to accept the System’s sexist solution, or put it back into the hands of a jury with a self-defense defense. If enough women could find the courage and pride to do so, the System would change, I have no doubt. If their attorneys helped them to do that and criticized the public prosecutors sharply, the System would change. If public prosecutors themselves realized the jig was up and the easy way out, a manslaughter plea, wasn’t going to work any more and it was time to put a good self-defense case into the “quietly dismiss” category, the System would change.

      My point is that there are multiple points in which this unfair legal practice may be and must be attacked.

      And then I look at MRA sites and they’re whinging about how women don’t take responsibility for our own safety.

      I think they’re right. Let’s do that. Let’s get very heavily into self-defense and work on our socialization.

      • It really is a risk to put ‘self defense’ to a jury. Many times, the fact is that people on the jury think that she should pay ‘something’ even though it’s clear she saved her own life. So she gets 2-5 years for mansl.

        I’ve got to check Sheehy’s book again but I think there is a case in there where the jury acquitted a woman for self defense. It’s rare though.

        I agree, the prosecutors office has to be informed that what they’re doing is a big problem. They want the numbers, the convictions.

        It’s amazing to me how daft MRA’s are. They haven’t even read the book and they made incredibly silly statements about the book. They framed it as if Sheehy was trying to get women to kill men. LOL That’s about the extent of their analysis, if you even want to call it that.

        Women who can show a clear pattern of battering shouldn’t serve a single day in jail. The question then becomes ‘how do you accomplish this?’

        I was listening to a Youtuber who said eventually women will wear recording devices and that’s how we’ll catch rapists. I think this might be the way of the future for women. In fact, at UBC there was a rapist going around and someone invented a phone program that would record both audio and visual at the press of a button. The recording couldn’t be erased either as it was sent to a database. This might be the way of the future.

        MRA’s call it ‘ABR’ always be recording. I think we should use that against them.

        Oh BTW, another MRA came out with ‘I got a DV charge’on a video show AVFM does. I sat there thinking ‘there’s another MRA abuser.’ The movement is full of them. Oh and Elam said his ex wife slapped him or something and I think he may have had to attend classes for batterers. So I suppose I’m right in thinking his little ‘fiction’ story that David dug up is actually about Elam wishing he could beat the shit out of a woman.

        • I’m in favor of cameras, motion lights, sticks, shouts, pepper spray,martial arts, and guns for self-defense. It’s hard to understand why young women aren’t trained in all of this in sixth grade.

          My niece, age 12, 5’10” and beautiful, came to visit. On our one outing, she was harassed relentlessly by men. Like, “hey, pretty soon you’ll have a couple babies, you’ll see what it’s about, stop acting like you’re so special, fuck you’re fuckable…” She was with 3 older women. I hardly knew what to say to her to try to erase the damage. We’ve all been there. What do we say? That for years to come she will be relentlessly harassed by monsters who she has been socialized to think are potential mates? That she must understand this is not a compliment but an assault? It’s overwhelming. I’ve been there.

          • vyechera,

            I don’t think the perps running this massive horror show want girls and women to have training in self-defense. After all, they start grooming little girls very, very young via the educational system, TV, religious systems and so on. By the time you’re 12, it seems like it’s hitting fever pitch. I remember being that age and I am still stunned at the number of pedophiles there are. Pedos are not, by any means, a rarity. They’re your uncles, all your dads friends, every jerk you see in the grocery store when you’re out shopping with your mom, etc. – you AND your mom together are harassed by men sometimes!

            The level of trauma we are all dealing with is beyond expression in mere words.

            I think martial arts and weapons training should just be part of all girls’ and women’s education. Although, it won’t help in those situations where some maniac is sneaking around hitting women in the head with a rock like is going on on a U.S. campus right now and it might not save you in a multiple-armed attacker situation (live I’ve been in), but it would help with a lot of the crime. I think boys and should be discouraged from such training, since most of them are cowardly anyway (no help whatsoever when a woman is under attack) and are more likely to use such training or weapons to commit crimes against women and children (and each other, of course).

            I’ve been looking into the possibility of studying some jiu-jitsu, however, I’m not sure it would have helped me in many of the situations I’ve been in. It still won’t make me comfortable around men. After all, it’s one thing to expect an intruder to burst into the room at any minute and it’s a whole other ball of wax to be in the room with a man you know and trust and wonder if he’s going to sneak up on you and attack you and violently attack you the second you turn your back, which has happened to me twice. By comparison, home invasion is the better thing to have to worry about.

            Even with all the martial arts and arms training in the world, men are a constant threat. I’m just tired of living with it all the damned time! I just want some peace.

            As important as the training is, I think girls and women should be taught early on who their greatest enemy is – who is most likely to rape, kill, maim and stalk us. We should never be taught that it is safe to be around men because it never is, however, great the illusion of safety may be, at times. It is just that: An illusion. Most men are very good actors who keep their feelings about girls and women secret until they have the opportunity to launch a violent attack and get away with it.

            • I’m so very sorry to say that your words are true, WOOW. That is what the System tolerates and tacitly encourages.

              So we must escape as individuals and as a class.

    12. BTW, WOOW, I am very moved by your description of how it really is for a woman to think of leaving and realizing there is no way out.

      I would never blame a woman for any decision she makes while she is being terrorized.

      But a few of us with some resources then have an even bigger responsibility – to stand up for our sisters who have no way out.

      • When I get money-ahead, I ‘m planning on making a tax deductible donation to some women’s shelters – religious or not. I also know a church group that helps rescued trafficked girls and their children in So. America. I’d love to be able to help just one girl or woman get out of that horrible situation, get an education and have a chance at a decent life!

        Unfortunately, I think there are too many dangers involved in helping DV victims one-on-one. That’s probably why I could never get any help, either. I didn’t want to treat this victim like people I knew and once trusted treated me when I told them that I was being brutalized by their “friend.” Men are such effing cowards! I would never turn away a woman at my door – even if she was being pursued at that moment and we were both in immediate danger – however, there are major dangers involved in letting her in under any circumstances! I think it’s important to be prepared for that. For instance, in this situation, I knew I was probably going to have some kind of problem with this dude. And, there’s another house here where she’s gone to get help when she was very severely beaten on another occasion; they are a married couple and I’ve talked to him and they are terrified of her abuser.

        So, I think we have to know our own boundaries and limitations when helping a woman in trouble. I feel like I’ve done all I can in this situation and way more than anyone ever did for me – which still isn’t much. Men who beat women half to death or who rape women, etc. are a not just a danger to that one woman. So, that’s something to consider. What kind of danger are you dealing with in any situation involving a battered and abused woman? And, probably there’s not going to be a clear answer because men, especially those with a violent history, are extremely unpredictable.

    13. I do envision, in the future, girls who are proficient in martial arts and also armed, and able to defend themselves psychologically.

      We are half the world’s population. We have to stop lying down for this shit.

    14. I thought this was going to be an argument about political lesbianism.

      But then it turned much, much worse.

      “sleeping with a man does not carry inevitable negative consequences.”

      Ye gods.

      The sad thing is, everything he said is just so… normal. Given the context of our culture, he would probably be considered a “white knight” or a “nice guy.” His subjectivism is also perfectly normal in our culture.

          • Well it’s a personal thing. I would immediately live in a community full of women if asked. It would be the best thing ever for ME. That said it’s not for everyone.

            I think there’s a benefit to focusing your life around women’s energy, women’s accomplishments, women’s lives. So much of our lives are spent in a male dominated, male focused society that I’m sure for me, it would take a period of detox to rid myself of that male centric thinking.

            I don’t know why it’s so controversial. I really don’t.

            • Well, because lesbian radfems feel that straight radfem are trying to appropriate their identity as a “choice.”

              I don’t think homosexuality is a choice. I don’t think it’s innate either, though…Or at least there’s no evidence of that being true.


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