Inclusiveness In Gaming Doesn’t Include Radical Feminists or If You Don’t Like the Acronym TERF Then You Are a TERF

Ever wonder why TERF is such a horrible word? Ever wonder if it silences women from speaking? Think no more on this subject because Irby Tremor has answered this question.

So today I said I didn’t like the acronym TERF and got booted from a supposedly inclusive feminist subreddit called r/gamerghazi, which is supposed to be fighting against gamergate for inclusiveness of women in games, well, just not a woman who thinks TERF is a bad acronym because it unfairly stigmatizes feminists.

UPDATE: people are having problems in the link below reading my initial comments that got me banned so I screencapped them:

Comment one (in response to someone using the term TERF as an insult (not to me)

comment 1Comment two, as a response

comment 2

That’s so much hatred. Can’t you see it oozing from those two comments?  So much. I’m glad I documented it so the next time some asshole calls me a TERF I have the comments right here.

Then I was banned:

banned 1banned 2If you’re a woman who doesn’t like the acronym TERF because you think it unfairly stigmatizes feminists then you are one because, uh, I dunno, it’s easier to silence feminists than it is to have a conversation? I said it was possible to criticize gender without hating people.The asshole who banned me just proved my initial point. So much for including women!

Read the epic transphobia I posted. (People were having problems finding my oh so hateful comments so they’re posted above). They’ll probably delete my comments tho b/c it really does make them look like a bunch of MRA reactionaries. My handle is joyintorah.

Oh and I also stuck up for Dworkin’s writing too. People were saying her writing was ‘crazy’ like MRA’s do and I responded that she wrote about being pimped and prostituted and that her work was critical to read. I suppose that’s not allowed. Only CERTAIN women, CERTAIN feminists are allowed.

I realize this is just pointless but I think it illustrates that radical feminists are immediately labeled with that term in order to be silenced and it is indeed a form of misogyny which was the whole fucking point to begin with!

Thanks Irby Tremor for proving my precise point.

Oh and if you read this Zoe, Alex, Anita, or anyone else I’ve been supporting that’s been unfairly treated, I’ll still fight for you and expose the assholes responsible. I just think r/gamerghazi has more in common with MRA’s now with their reactionary tactics. I’m just one voice but I’m an important one. HAIL PONG!

Oh and later I plan on doing a post about The Color Purple and standing with my black sisters. I’ve already started writing it but I wanted to post this post, timely and all that.

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97 thoughts on “Inclusiveness In Gaming Doesn’t Include Radical Feminists or If You Don’t Like the Acronym TERF Then You Are a TERF

  1. So, let me guess: Irby Tremor is a “feminist ally” – or maybe calls himself a feminist. Or, at least, tries to promote himself as someone who doesn’t hate women and feminists.

    I’m beginning to see a pattern.

    In fact, I think I’m having some kind of deja vu here. Didn’t something similar happen to you at r/againstmensrights at the hands of yet another “feminist ally” with a wiener? That dude even had a kind of gender-neutral sounding name, so you might think that the anti-anti-feminist group were run by a woman. Some other dudebro who posted here recently and pretends to be a feminist ally even makes posts in which he tries to portray himself as a woman, as a member of the oppressed group, until every so often when he says, “You know I’m a man, right?” – kind of like a flasher – flashing his peen at you, only online and not as you’re walking in a public park.

    Let’s see here… this is all starting to add up… Wiener + Feminist Ally = MRA + Predatory Male. You see, if a dude runs around online pretending not to despise women, he can get in closer, and do more psychological damage. This is a different kind of thrill than just outright trolling because it gives them a bigger charge.

  2. Trans activists are telling us women-born-women that we mustn’t mention menstruation or defloration or pregnancy or abortion or miscarriage or fertility problems or childbirth or breast-feeding or menopause or FGM or female genitalia any more because it does not include their kind of womanhood.

    Feminists mustn’t talk about any of the theoretical issues connected with transactivism’s postmodernist encroachment on boundaries of the historical oppressed class “Woman” that have been set after intense struggle.

    To discuss girlhoods of women is a slap in the face of trans women.

    Then we mustn’t show any concern about ANYONE, trans or openly creepy male, hanging around in women’s restrooms or gyms.

    To criticize trans women in combat sports like boxing almost killing women-born-women because of biological differences like skeletal and joint strength and reach and punching force is taboo.

    Nor can we now discuss like other concerned adults the industry around SRS and around administering puberty-blockers to children, let alone performing sterilizing surgery on our children.

    We are not to speak of rigidification of the female role of sex object so prevalent in trans discussion.

    We must not object that the term “lesbian” has a historical and biologically-based meaning and whether co-opting that name damages women born lesbian.

    We are not to refer to the negative effects of testosterone administered to women.

    Women-born-women may not congregate to discuss any issues that are not in common with the issues of tran women.

    Further, women-born-women may not discuss the issues at all online, even if trans folk are welcome to contribute to the discussion. They will be banned from any site with trans admins or moderators if they so much as make a peep about the term “TERFs” being offensive or inaccurate.

    If trans women like Paris Lees or Samantha Allen decide to criticize or praise MRAs, either way, they can allow MRAs to pretend they are women raised as women, inciting MRA misogyny.

    Well. There’s a problem in that a tiny number of trans activists are censoring us and attempting to divert discussion from the historical oppression of billions of women-born-women worldwide to their specific issues. I say this with all due respect to their particular difficult issues as trans folk. I continue to have hope that a truce will occur.

    • V.,

      I like your very precise assessment of this situation.

      It seems to me that whether this is a matter of men who genuinely think they’re women (by the way, I recently saw numbers on the number of such men who commit crimes, especially sex crimes, and it is very high compared to the general population of men – which ought to scare the bejeezus of actual women anywhere) or a matter of men intentionally undermining women’s discussions online and elsewhere because the are closet MRAs, or because they get a cheap thrill out of psychologically abusing women online, or because they have some other personal agenda (for instance, some misguided men think they are marketing their books by pretending to be feminist – I understand that presently it is hip and trendy for men to claim to be feminists right now), the end result of this abusive male behavior is the same. Conscious or not or for whatever motive, they are working to undermine women.

      Gee, men working to undermine women pretty much everywhere women and men occupy the same space – Whodathunkit?!

      • Sorry for all the typos.

        I said: “I recently saw numbers on the number of such men who commit crimes,…” I meant to say that I recently saw statistics on the numbers of such men who commit crimes…”

        I wish I could remember where I saw it, but it seem to me – and I know this is SO politically incorrect – that some of these men may have some kind of mental disorder.

        Again – whodathunkit?

    • I find women who were assigned female at birth but who identify as antifeminists to be the more concerning group of people because it really shows how powerful misogyny can be when internalized, especially when these women who should have the capacity to be sympathetic to feminist causes laugh at at women’s issues. Cis women who love being sexually humiliated and who believe sexual objectification is empowering concern me the most, whether they identify as feminists or not.

      I have seen many failings in the modern feminist movement that I hate (i.e. its support for porn and strip clubs without any overt concern for sex workers or strippers) but honestly intersectionality is not one of them. Intersectionality can actually draw people together and create a more powerful movement (i.e. women concerned about racism in the feminist movement wouldn’t have to leave and call themselves “womanists”).

      I have seen a social justice post that declared that the term female genital mutilation should be banned because it was cissexist. This absolutely enrages me and it does raise the question of whether injustices faced by primarily cis women will be overshadowed in a movement meant for them, specifically when a discussion about cis women’s hatred for their bodies is derailed. However, trans women or trans activists are not the ones who will take away our voices; it would be either antifeminist feminists (i.e. Christina Hoff Summers), “fun feminists”, or pro-prostitution/pro-porn/pro-strip club male feminists (like that white Hugo dude). For instance, the sexual revolution should have been a liberation movement but because feminists back then allowed for men to hijack the movement the sexual revolution did nothing but oversexualize cis women while still denying the sexual agency that they deserve.

      I don’t know about the lesbian part because I’m not a lesbian and it’s not my place to comment on it. I do know that labels have powerful meanings behind them though. Perhaps adding a trans in front of the word lesbian would stop the word itself from losing its history? The whole labels thing is very complicated. For example, if men cannot be feminists because they have not lived the lives of women, then can trans men be feminists or not?

      I don’t believe that cis women are naturally weaker than cis men. The apparent physical disadvantage of cis women comes more from socialization; muscle mass otherwise shouldn’t have a significant disparity if women were encouraged just as hard as men are to be fit. Maybe that’s why sports is considered manly but not womanly. Men are afraid of what cis women can become. There is a difference though between where male and female muscles are centralized and that may partly explain how patriarchy came about in the first place.

      TERF is never going to go away. It’s frustrating though because the most extreme forms of trans phobia have came from antifeminists and there’s no word created specifically for them. Nevertheless, we are always going to be blamed for anything wrong with the feminist movement even though they were not our errors to being with and even though mainstream feminism has its fault (they think the song anaconda is sexually liberating for women).

      [Script:

      “Once a feminist said all men should die!” whined the antifeminist egalitarian.

      “Yes, there are some radical feminists, but…” replied the feminist who works for Playboy and Robin Thicke. “Not all of us are hairy lesbians like that though. Some of us love men and BDSM. I also love high heels and wearing make up and wearing skimpy clothes. The radical feminists who question the pressure placed on women to confirm to these norms in a patriarchal context are shaming me. I also love, love anal sex and facials and butt slaps and find nothing wrong with them being prominent in porn and any women who does love them is not having sex right.”]

      Urg. I can’t. No, there is nothing wrong with any of those things but there is something wrong with people’s lack of empathy for women being pressured into these things and doing stuff they don’t like. =_= In my perspective, most trans women and trans inclusive feminists aren’t anything like these other feminists and they don’t promote the stance that “females are sex objects”. They promote the stance that gender is fluid and that people should be free to express their gender in any way that they want.

      There’s really something admirable about people assigned male at birth who will face dangerous circumstances just to women because being a women is worth it. I also love it when men enjoy make up and find nothing demeaning about wearing it. Do any of these nonconformists override the fact that many cis women have been oppressed based on the body they were born with and that women are pressured into wearing make up because they live in a society that values their appearances over ability? No, but these people blur the lines between gender roles. They challenge what it means to be a woman. That is in inself liberating.

      Anyways, these are my thoughts on the subject at hand that wandered off into many directions. I’m really disgusted by the porn industry right now and unamused by people who support it (that may explain my random ramblings).

    • V, you definitely bring up valid points. I’d like to say though, hormone blockers have not been found to have any long term effects, whereas hormones themselves DO have permanent effects (so the effects of puberty are a lifetime). And trans women who have transitioned with hormones tend to be on par with women physically speaking – although I now realize I have to look more at skeletal and joint strength. Thank you for speaking about your frustrations, though, really. Thank you. I am trans* and want us all to have a truce as well.

      • Thanks for stopping in and your good will, K.R. I am glad you, like me, would like to see this conflict end.

        I haven’t got a study regarding physical ill effects of hormone blockers. But I would ask that you consider what it is like for a thirteen- or fourteen-year old child at public school not going through puberty along with their peers. Remember when we were that age, how we just wanted to be like everyone else? But this boy’s voice won’t break, this girl won’t have a period. These children will be cut off for their peers for the terrible years of high school. These children will be outsiders and scorned and cut off. It’s unarguably a terrible fate for a kid that age, in social terms.

        I do get the horrendous problem here that trans folk feel they will never pass as the opposite sex if they transition after puberty. But where are the studies showing what proportion of kids who are gender-switchers at puberty will stick with that idea? Many will not, and their teen years will have been hell due to looking and acting strangely due to hormone-blockers. This will affect their future abilities to relate to people and probably much more as it will thoroughly twist their high school experience.

        I wonder if it’s really true that they can have the blockers cut off and resume development without mood swings and physical problems. Women have often had this experience. Pregnancy, puberty, hysterectomy, and menopause commonly cut off hormones. The results for an individual woman can be devastating.

        So I’m suspicious about the resumption of puberty of kids who change their minds. It reminds me strongly of the days when women were given hysterectomies, cutting off hormones abruptly, and told it wouldn’t cause any problem. They weren’t prepared for an agonizing cascade of emotional and physical results of the surgery that followed from, for instance, instant menopause after a hysterectomy.

        That makes me ask if there are any peer-reviewed long-term studies studying what happens to teens, emotionally and in terms of social development, who have been administered puberty-blockers and have them suddenly cut off because they decide they are not trans years on.

        What seems to be the case here is that kids who may be trans, if not identified early and administered blockers, will have a much harder time passing as women. On the other hand, kids who are confused about their sexual identities who are administered blockers may have hellish social problems that cause permanent damage to their psyches, and may not turn out to be trans.

        It’s a topic worthy of extended discussion and among people who have more expertise than I have, isn’t it?

        For me the question raised by your comment is, why are radfems vilified for wanting to discuss the impact of puberty blockers on kids who may be gay and not trans?

        Why can there be no discussion of any of the points I brought up on non-radfem-sites? Not only is there to be no discussion, but we are vilified and labeled with a slur and silenced and banned when we do ask to be included in the discussion. Is that justifiable?

        • Hormone blockers are not hormones, V, so it is not the same as giving hormones then stopping them. And no matter what, trans people tend to grow up feeling different and ostracized from other teens. This reminds me a bit about pro-lifers protecting women from abortions, it’s like you are protecting trans people from their own identity. All the studies I find suggest that once a person hits teenage years, they do not back down regarding their gender identity. I guess, I’d just like to see evidence that these trans related things are problems? I mean, you are making some pretty heavy suggestive claims that differ from all the literature I have read. Everyday Feminism links to a lot of the studies in their trans articles, I suggest starting there (I am not always satisfied with everyday feminism but their trans stuff is fantastic). Remember, trans people have been through hell regarding their identity, so it is going to be difficult to bring these points up without sounding like you are vilifying others. I have schizophrenia too, and that is EASY compared to having my gender identity in a cis world. So there is some insight from me, I hope it helps, and I think it would be better if people addressed your concerns rather than banning or slurring you!

          • Thank you. I think terf and cis are misogynist when they’re directed at women because women ARE the oppressed class. Women who are born as women and socialized their whole lives as women are different than trans people in that regard. We’ve been trained/socialized into all sorts of horrific shit. It’s not to say that trans people don’t experience oppression but yelling at other women calling them TERFS and cis women doesn’t help. We’re not oppressed for any other reason than we are women.

      • I just want people to have an honest discussion and not be so intent on labeling people TERF and cis and whatever else. I’m a woman, first and foremost. I feel if transwomen consider themselves women then we should be in the same boat fighting patriarchy because it’s men who commit the same crimes against us.

        If a guy in a tutu rapes a woman he gives up his ‘woman’ card or he never had it to begin with. He RAPED a woman because SHE was the woman, if you get my drift.

        I’m aware of the controversy in sport regarding people like that MMA fighter who women have refused to fight because of unfair advantage. However, this blog isn’t about that. It’s about oppression of women by men.

        It seems to me like transppl want to be a different class of people and yet want to be considered in the class ‘woman.’ I think that right there is what causes so many fights over silly shit. For example, guy in tutu is harming class women, not class trans.

        He didn’t think to himself ‘I’m going to rape a trans person.’ No. He said ‘I’m gonna teach WOMEN a lesson.’ This is male thinking, not women thinking. Then you’ve got trans people getting angry because women see him as a man committing a crime against a woman. It seems transppl want this person to be considered trans and then get angry when women point out it’s transppl raping women.

        It’s a no win situation for women. If we label this person trans, we get called transphobic and told there is no epidemic of transppl harming women. If we correctly label this person a man, we get called transphobic. This is why I’ll never accept that there’s some other ‘cis’ class. The intention of the criminal was to harm women and as we know this same man would harm a transperson if he managed to see that person as a woman.

        • Some trans people want to be seen as women, plenty of others don’t. Its not really anywhere near as simple as all of us either being women or not.

          “Then you’ve got trans people getting angry because women see him as a man committing a crime against a woman. It seems transppl want this person to be considered trans and then get angry when women point out it’s transppl raping women.

          It’s a no win situation for women. If we label this person trans, we get called transphobic and told there is no epidemic of transppl harming women. If we correctly label this person a man, we get called transphobic. This is why I’ll never accept that there’s some other ‘cis’ class. The intention of the criminal was to harm women and as we know this same man would harm a transperson if he managed to see that person as a woman.”

          You could label the tutu guy as trans* since from what I can tell he seems to be a male cross-dresser. Thats not what anyone here has objected to. And also, no one has said that trans people never rape. The things that I’ve objected to are calling transwomen men (such as “men-who-fancy-themselves-to-be-women,” and “If you can look down in your lap right now and see a penis, then you are a man.”) and inferences to the notion that trans people and sexual offenders are essentially one and the same (like the link to this article: https://outofmypantiesnow.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/when-is-90-not-substantially-all/ , as well as comments like “men who genuinely think they’re women (by the way, I recently saw numbers on the number of such men who commit crimes, especially sex crimes, and it is very high compared to the general population of men,” and “They do not wish us well. They want to hurt us and they want to do it so badly that they will go to a lot of trouble to make it happen.” )

          Read that link, and in particular read some of its comments (which really make it quite explicit what the message of that link is if its not explicit enough for you. For example: “You wonder why people who think that transgender people are nice. I bet they don’t see what is under that dress to realize that most of them are violent criminals and have some history of sexual violence.”) They also reference that hate-group Gender Identity Watch, which is presumably where all those links in that article came from.

          • I haven’t asked you to defend it. I’m explaining what my problems have been with various comments, since there seems to be some sort of misunderstanding going on. As it happens, that includes the linking and discussing of a certain blog that isn’t yours.

          • I didn’t make those comments. I don’t interfere with disputes between commenters. I’ve had that policy for months now. It doesn’t work getting involved. I also don’t have to answer for a blog post I didn’t write nor link.

          • Re: ” “If you can look down in your lap right now and see a penis, then you are a man.”)”

            A feminist said something really *radical* like: If you have a penis, then you’re a man! That’s just SO oppressive! I hope you can recover from this terrible blow.

            This is just so “horrible”. It’s an atrocity, I tell you. A woman dared to say, “Men have penises.” These terrible oppressive women saying these horrible, radical things and – oh, the horror! – posting links to a website you disapprove of simply must be stopped!

            Let me tell you, Dear Brother in Sorrow, rape survivors, human trafficking survivors, women who have lost their unborn children as a result of male abuse – who had to give birth to a dead child and hold in their hands and weep! – women forced into prostitution as little children, and survivors of other horrific violence at the hands of men – We ALL unite with you in your profound pain and anguish at the sight of this terrible, blighting statement: “Men have penises.”

            Life must be really hard for you. You know, I have a neighbor who has been beaten unconscious by a man a few times, who ended up on someone’s porch and they had to call ambulance to come and get her. The local cops – ALL MEN – let her get the h#ll beat out of her for a couple of months before they finally arrested the wife-beater and charged him with a misdemeanor. Oh, but you – you poor, poor thing – you’re the one who’s really got it rough. We all feel so, so sorry for you, victim of systematic oppression by biology professors and sex education teachers around the world.

            Clearly, you are the REAL victim here. Clearly, your oppression is, at least, as ours and we should all drop everything we are doing to tend to your needs.

            After all, we are *phobiacs* who imagine things like men beating us, raping us and trying to kill us. Whereas you – you poor, poor dear – are truly oppressed by being called a man because you have a penis.

            You have to throw a little childish man-tantrum at the horrible, mean feminists who simply cannot see how deeply hurt you are by being told that men have penises.

            You have a lot in common with men who shoot or bash women in the head when they turn them down for dates. A woman said “No,” to your silly notions about people who have penises really being WOMEN.

            Yes, if you have a penis, then you are woman.

            The most privileged class on earth is really the most oppressed class on earth.

            Thousands of years of actual oppression is is just as grave and should be taken as seriously as imagined wrongs.

            “No” means “yes.”

            And, if we don’t accept these ideas, then we are (fill in the blank____ whatever misogynistic slur suits your particular agenda).

          • I’ve been avoiding really talking with you WotW, as I find actually having to associate or speak with hateful people to not be particularly healthy for me. But if you are going to be this much of an ass about it, I’d may as well make some sort of response before I leave.

            I’m not particularly sure why you seem inclined to go into the “there are starving children in Africa, so any concerns you might have about anything must not valid” style argument. Really, if I wanted to hear arguments like that, I’d talk to MRAs or any other group that likes to trivialize and ignore peoples issues and problems. Things like rape culture have nothing to do with whether various comments you made are ignorant or transphobic and trying to invalidate and trivialize people’s feelings is just a shitty thing to do.

            Also, you know nothing about me (like how severe my history with depression has been, how many times I’ve attempted suicide, or whether or not I’ve ever been raped before.)

            But sure, if you want to trivialize my concerns about people like yourself being more accepting and open to minorities in feminist blogs, and instead prefer to ostracize, belittle and overall not be open to people with slightly different experiences from yourself, please do. I’ll make my leave, as it seems pretty obvious that I’m also not particularly welcome here.

          • Men have penises – yes, that’s real hate right there.

            Why don’t you mansplain me some more about all your little problems? I just really love hearing men drone on about how difficult their lives are compared to mine and other women’s.

            Did you get any uterine tears as a result of that rape? Did you have a miscarriage because of it. Did you ever give birth to a dead baby?

            Yes, I feel really sorry for YOU, you misogynistic waste of air.

          • Some trans people want to be seen as women, plenty of others don’t. Its not really anywhere near as simple as all of us either being women or not.

            What? Then what’s the point? Again, it displays precisely my point. It’s an identity issue. If I see the man in the tutu as a male I’m then called transphobic. If I see him as a transwoman then we can look at those crimes as patterns of behaviour of trans women but then I’m called transphobic.

            Either way I’m called a transphobe and it’s completely wrong.

            Also, I’m pointing out that sexual assaults don’t happen without context of patriarchal culture. This is why I see that as a male crime, NOT a female one. It’s men who are taught to dominate and control women not the other way around. If this is unclear to transpeople then the best thing to do is to listen to women who were raised as women FROM BIRTH.

            Women are a class. Either you’re a woman or not. I’ve never heard of this ‘well, some transwomen are women and others are not.’ Then why get mad at women who point out a man in a tutu is a man who is sexually assaulting women? Maybe he really is a man?

            This identity confusion isn’t to be laid at women’s door nor radical feminists door as a problem we have to solve.

          • Last comment.

            “What? Then what’s the point? Again, it displays precisely my point. It’s an identity issue.”

            The point is, saying that trans people all identify as women is a bit like saying PoC are all from Africa. It just shows you don’t really know anything about trans people… There’s a long list of different identities, just like there’s a lot of places PoC are “from.” Transwomen, transmen, drag kings/queens, bigendered, androgynous, Two Spirit, hijra, genderqueer, etc.

            “If I see the man in the tutu as a male I’m then called transphobic. If I see him as a transwoman then we can look at those crimes as patterns of behaviour of trans women but then I’m called transphobic.

            Either way I’m called a transphobe and it’s completely wrong.”

            I’m not sure why you are still having problems with this one. The guy in the tutu is presumably a cross-dresser, meaning that he is presumably male. I’ve been calling him male. No one’s been calling you transphobic over that but yourself. I also pointed out previously that the fact that he is male and obviously in our patriarchal culture is pretty much likely the main reason for the behavior. There aren’t however any “crimes as patterns of behavior of trans women,” which could get you labeled as transphobic. The people who argue that sort of thing are trans-hate groups, such as plenty of fundamentalist religious groups and people like Gordon Klingenschmitt. http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/klingenschmitt-there-demon-rape-inside-movement-violate-your-daughters

            “Also, I’m pointing out that sexual assaults don’t happen without context of patriarchal culture.”

            I never disagreed with this. I’ve pretty much stated such.

            “This identity confusion isn’t to be laid at women’s door nor radical feminists door as a problem we have to solve.”

            Sure some trans people have identity issues. That is to some extent be expected, given that the whole premise of being trans is you don’t fit into society’s traditional gender binary. Others are completely secure in who they are. In this case here though, you are the one that seems to be having confusion over identities, not me.

          • You said transwomen are not all women. Then I replied WHAT?

            I’m not talking about crossdressers. If you’re a transwoman you declare yourself as a woman no? You take on female gendered behaviour no and that identity no?

            I’m not talking about all that other stuff.

            I’ve made my point about identity. You’re either a woman or you’re not.

      • I couldn’t find it, either. Your Dworkin comment was very good.

        I think they deleted something near the comment you have the image of in your article above.

        What’s really wrong with wanting to exclude men-who-fancy-themselves-to-be-women in essence, anyway? (…especially, when they often use this as a ploy to harm girls and women.) Why would anyone who doesn’t hate women and who understands that the primary threat to our safety and well-being is men disagree with the idea of us trying to protect ourselves from such threats? Why would they advocate for compromising our safety in this way? The answer is obvious.

        I see this as overt hostility toward women. The “TERF” slur is 100% misogyny.

        By the way, here is a link to the article I mentioned previously. I found it, again. It talks about this particular public male behavior being associated with sex crimes. https://outofmypantiesnow.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/when-is-90-not-substantially-all/

        The point is: Men are a danger to women. When they pretend to be women or feminists or whatever they are doing – and I think it is ALL deliberate, I don’t think they are crazy, as such – they do not have nice intentions toward us. They do not wish us well. They want to hurt us and they want to do it so badly that they will go to a lot of trouble to make it happen.

        • Yeah, in order to cover asses it’s necessary to delete comments so people just assume you said something horrible. It’s been done before on reddit. I should just stay away since those place are run by men.

          • Reddit seems a lot like 4chan: Wall-to-wall knuckle-draggers!

            Remember what they did to Sworebytheprecious – how they basically gave her a platform, then turned on her and tried to ruin her reputation.

            The only reason I can see why men want to involve themselves with women’s “causes” or “issues” – I hate those terms, because those are *their* terms, but I don’t know how else to put it – is to find better ways of undermining us.

            Whenever some dude tells me he’s on our side big, red flags go up and I hear this “clang-clang” signal in my head! And, a lot is just from men claiming to be allies who I’ve interacted with here at your blog at some point.

            I was thinking about this as I was cleaning out the cat box (which is a great catalyst for contemplating male sh#t, apparently): Have you ever heard of any great military leader – all men, of course – of the past talk about loving his enemies, including his enemies? No. And, they only time you’ll find anything like this in history is when they wanted to propagandize their enemies so the could fix them for the kill.

            I will tell you this without shame or reservation: I pray for the death of my enemies. I have very great personal enemies who under any civilized system would be publicly executed for the crimes they have committed against me, personally, and most likely against a string of women.

            Sympathizing with your enemy or trying to include or encompass your enemy within any kind of revolution or revolutionary movement is really absurd. And, I don’t mind that some women talk this way about men and I get why they do it, publicly, but I hope that, at least, privately they realize what a self-sabotaging idea this is.

          • If you want to review the events, here’s a post from the dudebro in question. http://www.redditlog.com/snapshots/894669

            Notice the nice defense and the call to action, “I’m being targeted by a group of feminists,” (that’s all the other dudebros have to hear! Say no more!) and no one seems to suggest to him that it might be a bad idea to post about what even gives the appearance of being a criminal act online. After all, men do rape women and post the actual videos all over social media all the time.

            Swore was banned and if you try to visit her page there now, it goes nowhere.

            She did the right thing: If you see someone online admitting to the commission of a violent crime, you may have a duty, at least a moral one, to report it to law enforcement. Then, they should handle the investigation. If he’s innocent, then they’ll figure that out – probably even if he’s guilty they’re not going to do anything to him, anyway. But, don’t make your actions against criminals public, though, because they have too many supporters. That’s the only thing I see that she did wrong here.

          • As I understand it, Swore reported a rapist to the cops who was bragging about himself on Reddit. The guy later said it was all just talk, or a joke, or role play or something like that.

            She didn’t do anything wrong (after all, the menz keep telling us we should report rapists to the proper authoritahs or else we’re just making up stories), except she chronicled it at her website, which made her a target. (Lesson: If you’re going to report a rapist to the cops, which is almost always a bad idea, do it as quietly and anonymously as possible.)

            There was a pretty nasty discussion about her after that at r/againstmensrights in which she was made out to be some kind of feminist villain for jumping the gun and reporting a poor innocent male to the authoritahs without verifying it with the dude first to see if he was just joking about rape, fantasizing about it, giving the details of a particularly disturbing role playing session or using *satire*.

          • Rape is just satire ya know.

            Fuck reddit. I’m tired of that stinking place. It’s really a pack of men in charge anyway who diss Andrea Dworkin just to stick it to the MRA’s when they sound like the bigger fools for not even have understood Dworkin’s past.

          • Oh, and the first thing they did over there at r/againstmens rights was “shadow ban” her. I had no idea what this was – had to look it up at the time. This means that you’re not officially kicked off – in fact, I think your posts may still appear to you, but they disappear from the view of anyone else, so they can silence you, lest you have the opportunity to defend yourself from this pack of vicious, wild, slavering dogs, who really get off on publicly tearing feminists – even really liberal, kindly, and in my opinion very naive feminists – apart, it seems.

          • Speaking of abusers – reading the dude’s account where he busted his girlfriend in the nose (and I don’t know if he’s admitting he did this or if it’s all a joke, because it’s just impossible to tell – when a guy says he hit a woman or raped a woman, I have no reason to think this is a joke or an account of BDSM role-playing because (1) this is the kind of thing men do to women pretty frequently and (2) I’m familiar with BDSM an, at least, the way things were 20 years ago, rape and beating up women really wasn’t a common thing in role playing, as far as I know) just reminded me.

            This is O/T, but the wife-beater dude who broke into part of my house is out of jail in one county, but had to appear in another yesterday on a domestic abuse charge (still can’t believe that knocking women unconscious repeatedly is only a misdemeanor – and I have very, very little faith in the system to start with), which was rescheduled for next month. Bummer! I was hoping they’d keep him, but the good news is that according to the terms of his probation he has to live with his mommy! He’s 40-something years old and in mommy’s custody, once again. But, at least he’s a couple of towns away from here!

        • “The “TERF” slur is 100% misogyny.”

          I’ve never seen it expressed more clearly. The only people who are called TERFs are women and feminist, members of an oppressed class. They have said repeatedly that they find the term offensive, overbroad, and factually inaccurate. They are being lumped together under that term and censored. Animosity is being directed toward them as a result of this broad-brush labeling. Open misogynists are using this term to extend the censorship. Silencing of women speaking for our sex is an especially egregious act because of our long history and long struggle against being silenced.

          And this comes from a group that is itself exquisitely sensitive to being labeled and censored.

          Yes, there is currently polarization and a struggle over boundaries and definitions. It doesn’t help the situation to use labels considered to be slurs by those who are labeled. At the very least there should be open discussion without censorship of the use of the slur. That is being prevented on large sites when this issue comes up.

  3. It’s way past time for radfem bloggers to unite. I don’t really know what the problem is. Radfem central, radfem reader, indies like this blog — even though there are some differences it seems that we are already united as women who are critical of the impacts of pornography, prostitution, rape and marriage on women’s liberation. Seems like we all have a good understanding of how this is related to civil rights struggles and the current struggles of minority women, as well as always keeping in mind the struggles of women outside developed countries. We all honor lesbians who have had the whammy throughout. We have a pretty well-developed critique of postmodernism as it relates to women’s liberation. We support new groups like Women’s Liberation Front.

    Many radfem bloggers have devoted themselves to maintaining boundaries of women as a class in the face of the encroachments of other marginal groups like trans women. This has to be done and is difficult. But it’s not our only task. We need to bring together people like Gail Dines, Sheila Jeffries, Betty McClellan, Cathy Brennan, independent bloggers like you, Rebecca Mott, Radical Wind, Glosswatch, Phoneaesthetica, Melinda Tankard Reist, Julie Bindel, Susan Hawthorne…we are all engaged in the same struggle, one that is cultural and social rather than legal and economic.

      • WordPress is one of the few – maybe the only – big social media sites I can think of that isn’t run by people who seem entirely hostile to women.

        Facebook’s record speaks for itself.

        Twitter can’t be trusted as far as you could throw ’em. Did you know they sold user information a few years ago, despite their privacy policy? Yes, they did. And, they got sued. I was one of their victims. I never saw any restitution and the damage was never undone. But, the U.S. Gov collected a little fine. They do not care about their users privacy or safety – not one iota. And, those B.S. report-a-rape-threat measures they put in place turned out to be exactly what I expected they’d be: Smoke and mirrors.

        YouTube is overtly hostile toward girls and women and allows all kinds of violent rhetoric against women and girls. Elliot Rodger is the one everybody knows about, but there are lots of others like him on there. I see them all the time. If I’m in the mood, I report them, but nothing ever happens to their videos. Meanwhile, there are hardly any women left online who aren’t doing make-up and hair tutorials.

        • Did you hear about a feminist org doing research on Twitter for the harassment women face on there? WAM (Women Action Media) has paired up with Twitter and has a special report form which a woman can use. WAM then forwards this on to Twitter after using it for research purposes.

          • I did.

            I was really glad that someone publicly acknowledged that what Twitter did (or claimed they were going to do) to increase the safety of women at their site didn’t work.

            Yet, I remain skeptical – and not because of WAM, but because of Twitter.

          • Totally agree. In fact, a bunch of male supremacysts got together flagging women’s accounts for ‘misandreeee!’

            So far not one woman has been banned yet. I retweeted the threat so maybe women got out ahead of it.

        • I used to do makeup tuts when I was working as a MUA. I got pretty good views. The best I ever did on Youtube was my origami tuts. Even with a shitty webcam with horrible cam angle I managed to do ok. I abandoned it though because I had too much going on trying to expose MRA’s. I like my beauty blog. It’s quick and to the point.

          • I like your beauty blog, too.

            On YT, it looks like women can get along pretty well, maybe even very well, as long as they appear to be licking men’s boots. If what you’re doing serves the patriarchal establishment in some way, you can probably thrive as a woman there. But, put a toe out of line and look out!

            It’s just like real life! As long as you appear to be going with what the establishment wants, you don’t have quite as many problems. In fact, back when the economy was good and, at least, some clubs enforced rules for our safety, a dancer (especially if you got some sparkly costumes and some silicone here and there) could make a tiny fortune. It wasn’t without lots of problems (like the occasional nervous breakdown), but those problems were just as bad or worse in more conventional jobs – and the pay was a lot less, and you had no bouncers, security personnel, security cameras, etc. working on your behalf.

            Honestly, I don’t know if it’s possible to make yourself much of a financial success as a woman without doing something in service of The Man, which has a whole different connotation for women than it does for dudes.

          • If you want quick money you sell your body to men.

            If you want a profession like STEM you go to school where your prof wears porn shirts, never speaks to you or when he does he compliments your appearance and not your work.

            Once graduated you learn you’re not ever as good as a man. Your male boss offers you less pay b/c he knows you feel lucky just to get a job.

            While working you deal with men in porno shirts who only speak to you to try and bed you.

    • I’ve thought about this, too, but I think we need to set up some rules for our safety. And, I would base those rules on what hackers and stalkers have already done in the past. Vliet Triptee’s blog shows how they have hacked and stalked in the past. I think we, also, have to consider Murphy’s Law – consider what is possible for infiltrators and hackers to do and either counter it or abandon it.

      One thing I would do, if I were going to have a group online is insist that everyone have a unique ID (used no where else online and in no way connected with you, your profession or your personality, so it can’t be cross-referenced) and use email systems (like Gmail, believe it or not) that don’t leave an IP trail.

      It would be nice if there were multiple such groups because it would spread us out and make it more difficult for them to target us.

      The group would have to be private and not publicly advertised…all things I’ve thought about but I’m not sure how to go forward with because we’re all (well most of us anyway) are pretty scared. I read it at other women’s blogs.

  4. Sorry, should be Sheila Jeffreys.

    A number of us are academic, many more are not. That shouldn’t matter. We are the Fourth Wave, I do believe, the Radfem Bloggers who are working hard to keep the Internet open to feminist thought among so many other things.

  5. Well I’m going to a big conference this weekend where I expect to run into a number of radfems. I’m wearing my brand-new “I am Gallus Mag” T-shirt (she was doxxed but they got the wrong person so a lot of people bought this T-shirt to further confuse the issue), and hope to run into others in the same T-Shirt. I’m going to say hey, we all need to get together.

  6. As someone that is trans, I find it pretty ridiculous that they banned you and deleted your posts simply for stating objections to how a term is used. But Jesus Christ at the comments on this blog post….

    • Well, it was probably a dude who banned me and of course in this day and age a label is more important than analysis.

      Oh and the comments are well thought out: It’s called being angry at Patriarchy. Something we know very well. It’s called oppression of women.

      • I suppose it was really only a few comments out of the whole. Still though, I’m referring specifically to the comments referring to trans individuals as “men-who-fancy-themselves-to-be-women” (among other such rich slights) and querying about whether groups should be exclusionary to them. Or the ones referring to ridiculous blog posts that conflate trans people with individuals who commit sex crimes and makes statements like “Transgender sex disorders are the leading indicator of criminal sexual behavior.” Despite what such transphobic articles like to imply and may have some believe, there is no epidemic of trans[women] sexually assaulting people; it’s simply not true that “trans[women] … are a clear and present danger to women, children and living creatures,” as one commenter in that blog brazenly put it.

        These types of notions are particularly offensive in that in reality it is in fact trans individuals who as a minority are one of the most likely groups to be a victim of sexual assault, with about 50% of transgender individuals having experienced sexual violence.

          • Would you hold MRA commenters to this standard? Or those who make racist slurs or make comments about how violent “those blacks” are?

            Look, I get it. I’m just this random person coming in here and randomly attacking some of the things said by commenters whom you’ve probably had plenty of great conversations with. They and you probably consider this a fairly safe space where you can talk about your frustrations with our ridiculous patriarchal society, and you probably don’t want someone coming in here just ranting about transphobia. And really, I’m sure that they are all nice and really well meaning people.

            Still, I can’t help but point out this sort of thing when I see it, because just as sexism and the patriarchy are wrong, transphobia is wrong. I’m not asking that you start banning commenters or anything ridiculous. I merely want people to recognize that just like ciswomen and PoC, trans people deserve equality and to just be treated like human beings. Don’t allow us to be thrown under the bus.

          • You haven’t really pointed anything out in my view. You’re attacking WoTW for seeing a rapist as a man. I don’t butt in to disagreements on this blog aside from handing my own opinion. There are rules on this blog. It seems to me like you want to find something so you can point to and say ‘see! That’s transbashing.’ You came here with that suspicion and now want to find it. Even other commenters pointed out the focus of this blog is the oppression of women by men.

            The issue here is that I see WoTW’s example of a guy in a tutu to be a man. Men commit these crimes against women. You want him to speak for you? You want to bestow on him ‘womanhood?’ I sure as fuck don’t.

          • I didn’t come here with any suspicions that this was some transphobic group. David Futrelle’s blog (We Hunted the Mammoth) linked to this one, and when I saw it I said “where have I seen ‘Mancheeze” before?” All I knew was that this was presumably a feminist blog that opposed MRAs. And when I read your post, I actually supported you, which is why I wanted to comment in the first place.

            “Even other commenters pointed out the focus of this blog is the oppression of women by men.”

            And the trans commenter that made this point also later pointed out that they no longer felt welcome here.

            “The issue here is that I see WoTW’s example of a guy in a tutu to be a man. Men commit these crimes against women. You want him to speak for you? You want to bestow on him ‘womanhood?’ I sure as fuck don’t.”

            I’m not talking about guys in tutu’s flashing people. I’m talking about all the implications that transwomen are men, and the conflation of trans people with sex offenders, as if they are essentially one and the same.

          • I’m not talking about guys in tutu’s flashing people. I’m talking about all the implications that transwomen are men, and the conflation of trans people with sex offenders, as if they are essentially one and the same.

            That was the statement you took issue with. Nobody is doing that. I’m saying he is a man. So was WotW

          • That statement was posted long after I started taking issue with things here. The only times I’ve even referred to it were just now, and in response to you a bit ago where I said “I’m not talking about guys in tutu’s flashing people. I’m talking about all the implications that transwomen are men, and the conflation of trans people with sex offenders, as if they are essentially one and the same.”

          • I wrote a comment to the other transperson who was here and hopefully I’ll say this clearly because I’m a bit sleepy and such.

            The problem as I see it is which class Trans people want to belong and I think this causes the most problems between those like myself, who are staunch radical feminists, and transppl like yourself.

            When the guy in the tutu commits rape he’s harming women. He’s singling out a woman to harm because that’s part of patriarchy and part of toxic masculinity. He’s raping a woman. This is a crime of men to harm women, as an individual woman and as a class.

            I don’t see that person as trans because the nature of the crime is something that MEN do TO WOMEN.

            This is why I asked you if you wanted to label him a woman or bestow womanhood on him. I don’t want to call him a woman because I know the crime is male.

            If trans women see themselves as women I don’t understand why it’s difficult to understand that those are male crimes, NOT trans crimes.

            On the one hand you take issue with radical feminists naming it as a male perpetrated crime and so then if we name it as a trans crime it’s still a problem.

            That’s a no win situation. We’re screwed if we name HIM as a male agent who rapes women as we understand rape to be a crime that men perpetrate on women in our patriarchal society and we’re screwed if we say transpeople are committing all these sexual assaults/rapes.

            See what I mean?

            You have to look at sexual assault/rape the way we radfems do, I think, to understand this because we see it as a male crime with the purpose of controlling women as a class. We see it not as an isolated event stripped of its context in a male dominated, masculine focused culture.

            I hope I’m making sense.

            If we can’t as radical feminists NAME the problem which is male violence against women then we can’t address it nor solve it.

            It seems like transppl want us to identify him as a woman, which to us seems ludicrous because in our framework sexual assault and rape is a crime of men. Yes some women do commit sexual assault but my god not nearly as much or as severely.

            Are transwomen women? If so it shouldn’t surprise you that radical feminists point out that those sex crimes are done by men, NOT by women.

            Now I don’t know whether sex or gender is responsible for rape. According to my own theory it must be gender aka socialization but I can’t rule out sex because we just don’t know.

            Radical feminists are damned if we do, damned if we don’t.

            If we correctly identify sexual assault as a male crime based on male socialization into a culture of patriarchy then transwomen say we’re transphobic for calling the perpetrator a man and not a woman.

            If we call him a woman we’re called transphobic because trans people don’t have a trend towards sexual assault/rape.

          • I’m talking about all the implications that transwomen are men, and the conflation of trans people with sex offenders, as if they are essentially one and the same.”

            I have explained this in great detail. I am not conflating. I explained why I see him as male and see sex offenders as male. So no, I haven’t conflated sex offenders with transwomen. I’ve done quite the opposite.

        • Dude, the facts are there. But, you don’t really need stats to tell you this. This kind of thing is in the news every day.

          A few days ago, some huge, hairy man, dressed in a pink tutu, went around a town in Texas exposing his wong to random women. One of his targets was a beauty salon, which contained a whole bunch of women. The called the cops and he was arrested and charged with indecent exposure.

          Are they “transphobic,” too? After all, he was just running around in a tutu expressing his gender-identity or sexuality, right?! Or is it just possible that the women had a legitimate (not imagined, not a phobia), reality-based reason to fear this person?

          When men do these things to women, women either call the cops or say nothing, usually because we know it doesn’t do any good to say anything. You’ll be disbelieved or dismissed or discredited in some way – the latest thing being that you are “trans-phobic” or a TERF.

          When men do these things to other men, they get the sh#t beat out of them. So, yes, I’m sure some dudes have assaulted plenty of other dudes like the tutu guy. Men commit violence against both women and other men at an extremely high rate.

    • I think if the comments are skimmed, they do seem a little transphobic. Example: “It seems to me that whether this is a matter of men who genuinely think they’re women (by the way, I recently saw numbers on the number of such men who commit crimes, especially sex crimes, and it is very high compared to the general population of men – which ought to scare the bejeezus of actual women anywhere)” – sounds like an accusation that trans women are not real women and are more violent.

      But further reading, yes it is as you say, Mouse Queen, a lot of women being justifiably angry at patriarchy and discussing accordingly.

      I am Trans*, female assigned at birth, so I got a little nervous at the comments as well. But read a little deeper, Neko, the anger is at men, not trans people.

      • I wouldn’t say the anger is not directed at men. Where their anger is directed however doesn’t mean that people can’t make transphobic comments or suggest that transwomen aren’t “real” women. I’m not saying people shouldn’t be angry. I merely don’t think anger over one issue justifies slighting an entirely different group.

        • I do not appreciate the term “transphobic” being directed at women like myself. In fact, I think it takes a real scumbag to say something like that.

          This has nothing to do with a “phobia” of any kind, whatsoever. It has to do with reality.

          Reality #1: If you can look down in your lap right now and see a penis, then you are a man.

          Reality #2: Women who have been raped by men multiple times, prostituted by men, stalked by men, nearly murdered by men, horrifically sexually abused by men, who have dealt with male oppression from the instant we drew our first breath, and who now live in a very real (not imagined) state of fear because of men – and I’m describing myself here, although it could be any woman posting here or any woman reading right now – should not be described as phobiac in relation to men (as previously described above).

          I have no phobia of anything. And, I am NOT a coward. I’ve been through things you, sir, cannot imagine in your worst nightmares! But, I do have a very realistic fear of men. That fear is based on real-life experiences. I am not hysterical. Nor am I (or any of millions of women like me) an “extremist” or a “militant” because I want to live and I do not want to be raped or threatened with sexual assault from men.

          Men (or whatever you think you are) who talk this way to women are not our friends. You are the enemy. I think you’ve made yourself perfectly clear. I hope I have made myself clear to you.

          • This is… horrible. This is what people WOULD call transphobic, but since you do not like it, it is anti-trans. Genitals and gender and even sex are all different. I have never seen such awful things from a feminist. Since I am do not feel welcome in the comment section, I take my leave. Marginalizing the feelings of marginalized people is NEVER okay.

          • Not wanting to be raped or murdered is not “horrible,” – it is a sign that men have not completely destroyed my will to live and it is the reality around which I have had to arrange my life – all because of MEN.

            I don’t see how dumping more on me and women like me helps you in any way.

            If you have a problem of some kind, then take it up with MEN. Why harass feminists? Don’t you think we’ve had more than our fair share yet?

  7. I’m not getting this…if men are women, then what the fuck is the word “trans” for? Trans, as in transitioning from one to the other, yes? Cis is a slur. Whenever I hear TERF, I just hear BURN THE WITCH. I hear mansplaining from men want to control the conversation woman are having — same old sexist bullshit. The gaslighting is so typical.

    • Transgender is generally considered an umbrella term for basically anyone who doesn’t identify with the traditional gender binary in our society, so there’s a lot of things that fall under it. It can however as well be used to refer to those who are transitioning, or have transitioned or want to transition.

      And in my experience, “cis” isn’t really a slur. I and most trans people I know simply use it to refer to people who aren’t trans. It’s difficult to talk about groups of people without some sort of name or label. As well in my experience, “TERF” tends to be used to refer to actual hate groups and such that are against trans people, like Gender Identity Watch. It seems other people don’t always have this experience though.

        • …and to reinforce patriarchal notions of gender, which are extremely harmful to girls and women.

          But, mostly right now, it is an attempt to intimidate and silence women. The reason some feminists appear accepting of this complete and utter nonsense is because we have enough REAL problems to deal with without this… this is why we’ve been reluctant to discuss it here. I’m truly surprised we weren’t brigaded.

          Also, we have to pick our battles and this is just all so ludicrous that I almost can’t believe it.

          Men dominate the English language and feel free to redefine terms at their leisure and we’re all just supposed to go along with it. But, the Emperor has no clothes and I’m not going to say he’s wearing robes of the finest silk when all the while he’s sticking his wing-wang in our faces once, again.

          • My views about those terms are that they’re oppressive and yes, it’s just another silencing for women.

            We are women. We’ve always been women.

            Women aren’t committing crimes like murder and sexual assault on transwomen. Men ARE.

            WHY? They either see them as traitors to their gender or they see them as women.

            I don’t understand why ANYONE would be mad that I see ALL those people on the blog list you posted as men. They ARE men, socialized as MEN to rape and harm women.

            I didn’t get angry with you or interfere because 1) you know my policy on that and 2) I’d be mad if someone called me a transphobe too.

            To me it’s a problem of identity. If you’re a woman you don’t keep your man card.

            You listen to women born women who know the oldest oppression because we were born as female and raised as female, trained in patriarchy from DAY ONE.

            You can’t have a discussion without being called a name that’s oppressive.

            If I say all the people on that sexual assault list were women then I’d be called a transphobe because there’s no patterns of transwomen sexually assaulting women.

            If I rightly call those ppl on the blog list men I’m a transphobe for not calling them women.

            It’s either one or the other: Man or woman.

            Gender is oppressive. Trying to make it fluid or manufacture another gender that takes from both masculine and feminine ‘traits’ then it’s just a way to claim one class oppression while oppressing the other. YOU CAN’T BE BOTH.

            I didn’t find your comment about penises to be wildly transphobic. It’s a biological fact. Penises denote male. Vagina’s denote female.

            If that gets you called a transphobe and starts the bickering then it will be a while before any talking can take place.

            I take issue with labeling people TERFS and then expecting that labeled person to not be angry about it.

            I’d be, and I AM, just as angry about those two words (TERF and CIS)

            It’s a quick little liberal word to silence ANY kind of discussion about anything important.

            It seems for many transwomen they are blind to whose really oppressing them. It AINT radical feminists. It’s men.

            Women are the most educated in this toxic pat system and while I accept that transppl deal with their own issues they’re not a result of women or radical feminists.

            It all comes down to not being able to name male violence because that man will claim he’s a woman. It’s a way to make it all disappear.

            If you’re a woman, then be a woman and learn from your sisters what word you’re entering. Don’t diss your sisters and call them cis as if they’re your oppressor too. That’s called keeping your man card imv.

        • Thank you, HMQ, for the way you handled the discussion and for understanding that these are, in fact, insults to all women.

          I’d never heard of this trans woman business until a few months ago… At first, I thought they were talking about transsexuals, quite a few of whom I worked with in the strip clubs (you’d never know!) and who have never presented a problem – not in dressing rooms or bathrooms. Of course, they do not have penises. Transwoman, on the other hand, seems to be a whole other thing. I didn’t know this until I started looking into it.

          That’s why I said, if you have a penis, you’re a man. I don’t think there is a biology or sex education teacher anywhere who wouldn’t back me up on that.

          I think we are in a very strange place here in the 21st century when it is “horrible” or somehow oppressive to men to say that the are men when they possess male sex organs.

          And, since men literally use their sex organs as weapons against us, I think it is understandable that women are on guard – and clearly we should be.

          I’ve never been more convinced, since I heard of this whole thing, that these men are actually men. They certainly act like men. They insist on telling women what to do and how to do it like men.

          I don’t like MEN monitoring my speech, telling me what I can and cannot say. I don’t like having my every move observed and criticized by men. In my experience, this leads to other things – like assault – in a short time. So, this is what we’re dealing with here online. We have dudes – not just the men-who-fancy-themselves-to-be-women – but other dudes, like the male “feminists” and “feminist allies” and a bunch of liberal buttinskies with wangs who want to monitor us. The want to make sure we women don’t get out of line. The establish places online as “feminist” or “anti-anti-feminist” hangouts for the purpose of keeping feminists in line and for the thrill of lording it over women and abusing women, just like they do in real life.

          These men – like Neko, F. Tremblay, and some others who have been here trying to monitor us, trying to micro-manage us – may have all kinds of labels for themselves, but to me they are all just MEN. They don’t even seem to have a grasp of how not to behave like oppressors – because that’s what they are.

          • BTW, this is neither here nor there. It’s just a point of amusement. I couldn’t remember what town the pink tutu guy was in. When I followed the link to Houston’s Click2News, I saw that it was Spring, TX: The Proud Home of AVfM!

            I wonder if the tutu guy is a buddy of ol’ Paulie’s? Maybe they guzzle beers together and swap items from their wardrobes. It’s a funny picture in my mind, anyway. 🙂

  8. “And out of those 50% transgendered sex crimes, what was the percentage of those crimes that were committed by men?”

    I’d imagine the large majority were by men. I’m not denying that violence by men is a serious problem. I too am a feminist.

    “That is not all that transfolk have problems with. Extreme prejudism including limited access to employment, being refused medical care, a very high 41% suicide rate, 25% drug and alcohol abuse, high rates of depression and about 3% HIV infection rate. Between all that and the painful process of undergoing body modifications, I wonder why someone would choose to put themselves in such a vunerable position.”

    Some would have you believe its because we are all men with a fetish/disorder and want to assault women.

    “How would you like to see the feminist communities help you?”

    In my overall experience, most feminists are pretty accepting of trans people. I think the community as a whole could be more outspoken about trans issues, and could do more to speak out against groups like Gender Identity Watch (a feminist trans-hate group,) but really my concerns tend to be over specific individual feminists rather than the community as a whole. And really, the community as a whole needs to start recognizing/discussing plenty of minorities more, like PoC, not just trans people.

    “You also cannot deny that many trans do commit crimes (both pre- and post). As a woman who has been hurt by the patriarchy many times, unfortunately it includes betrayal by women as well. There is nothing at the onset that indicates transfolk are going to behave different, unless I’m missing something.”

    I’m not saying that trans people are immune to committing crimes (though when they do, as well as sometimes when they don’t, they are treated like complete shit by the police, prisons, etc.) As people have pointed out, there are plenty of (namely male) cross-dressers for example that assault women or do plenty of other criminal acts. Being in some way trans doesn’t magically make you a good person or not part of the patriarchy. It is however wrong to just treat trans people as a group as if they are all basically criminals, or as if the two are basically one and the same. It’s also wrong to do things like tell transwomen that they are all “really men.”

  9. HMQ, I just read your update and thanks for posting that exchange. I went – again – and tried to find it in the discussion and it does not appear on my screen. I am not a reddit member. I wonder if this is some type of banning like I mentioned above where they make it so only you can see the comment. The Dworkin ones appear, but maybe those particular comments have been “shadow banned.” So, you can see them, but no one else can. I don’t know. It’s just a thought. But, I did a Ctl-F for keywords from the discussion and your ID. It ain’t there!

    Regarding this statement from your article, above: “They’ll probably delete my comments tho b/c it really does make them look like a bunch of MRA reactionaries. My handle is joyintorah.”

    “Oh and I also stuck up for Dworkin’s writing too. People were saying her writing was ‘crazy’ like MRA’s do and I responded that she wrote about being pimped and prostituted and that her work was critical to read. I suppose that’s not allowed. Only CERTAIN women, CERTAIN feminists are allowed.”

    I think you’ve said something important here, which goes along what I was trying to say in the first comment I made in this growing thread: It’s the same ol’ same ol’ here with various types of players, all of whom are misogynist agitators, harassers, abusers and infiltrators. In this case it’s dudes pretending to care about something that adversely affects women – when clearly they don’t give a flying fig about us. What’s the difference between these men and MRAS? This is all about men dictating to women, abusing and harassing women. While it is very important to talk about intersectionality in feminism, we don’t need men dictating the discussion to us, redefining terms, redefining us, redefining what feminism is, and generally sticking their d#cks where they don’t belong, just like they always do. We have a responsibility to ourselves and other women not to allow this. As someone else said, this is *gas lighting* and it is something we are probably all very, very familiar with – certainly familiar enough to identify it pretty quickly when we see it.

    I don’t care who or what they claim to be, ie., MRA, RedPiller, overt trolls, male feminist, feminist ally, orsneaky liberals whose best friends are women – or whether what they are doing is intentional or not (I think it’s absolutely intentional and planned like other horrible things me do to us), the end result of what they are doing to us is the same. They want to keep the gender hierarchy, which is a patriarchal social construct, in place and use it to dominate and subjugate us as they have always done and mostly continue to do.

    Also, I’m really sick of hearing these many recycled versions of “What about the Menz?” and NAMALT along with men’s pathetic notions about their “oppression.” I don’t care about menz imaginary problems. Frankly, I am in no position to care, anyway, and I’ve had more than enough – way more than anyone should be expected to have to take.

  10. Yeah, I’m sure a lot of people are tired of explaining the difference between biological sex and gender all day long, but — gender is a construct. Biology is really real. I bleed once a month, and blood doesn’t lie. I don’t care how someone wishes to present, but to tell women born women that they’re not really women is fucking disrespectful to us. Jesus, between the social conditioning, the sexism and all the bugger shit things that have been inflicted on us historically (feet-binding, being denied higher education, having to lobby for the right to vote, to oversee our own reproductive systems, marital rape — and so on), being a woman means more than just passing as one (some biological women don’t always pass because they’re uncommonly tall or butch, for example). Being catcalled on the street isn’t a compliment. Fear of rape isn’t a compliment. Being told you can’t do STEM because of evo-psych nonsense about ladybrains isn’t a compliment. I can’t waste precious time telling you how pretty you are and how you pass. We’re not your mothers. Women are criticized for how they look 24/7. The criteria for being conventionally attractive and female is fucking ridiculous to begin with. But see, being a woman isn’t all superficial surface stuff. I do things to prevent being raped. I do expend extra energy to be taken seriously because of sexism. Go yell at the patriarchy for inventing gender stereotypes. Go yell at the patriarchy for creating ridiculous biases about how woman should look. Women didn’t do that. We’re just trying to survive here.

    • Agreed. Women didn’t do that at all. All of the problems are a result of men. I think if transwomen are women this should be absolutely understood. As I said, it’s like talking to someone who has competing ideas about what class they belong to and as you can read from the comments, I was right.

      I classify a man in a tutu who sexually assaults women as a MAN because our society teaches him rape of women. It’s a male business is my point. I’m damned if I see him as a man because transphobia and I’m damned if I see him as a woman because noticing crimes committed by transpeople are supposed to be seen as individual events and not a pattern therefore transphobia. There’s no way around it.

      Instead I have to somehow analyze a blog that’s not mine in order to do what exactly? I won’t be held accountable for other blogs and if my commenters here disagree, it’s not up to me to speak for them.

      If you’re a woman you have women’s concerns and who best to know what women’s concerns are than women who were born women and socialized from birth as women. We understand patriarchal oppression better than anyone. It’s too bad nobody wants to listen and instead label women nasty names like TERF and CIS. I won’t stand for it.

  11. Thank you, HMQ, for this blog entry. It is very difficult as you said for radfems to to speak about the “TERF” slur and the silencing of women, without the conversation becoming extremely antagonistic if trans women enter in and issues are joined. I felt that this time around, though there was heat and conflict, there was some basic mutual respect also and some actual discussion of issues, and that is unusual.

    I’m off this thread, but just wanted to thank you for raising this. Also I had a thought: is there any radical feminist who does NOT support the idea of woman safe spaces, that is, spaces to talk about issues relating to our biological commonalities, common historically-embedded oppression, and the institutions that have grown up to control our reproductive capacity as a class? And to do so in full recognition that sharing our life experiences as girls are the most important way we have of cutting through our conditioning and getting to these issues?

    I think we all agree on the need for such spaces. Then the term “TERF” is a tautology. We are radical feminists, and sometimes we do not want to be derailed from discussion of our focus issues.

  12. Gee, this has been entertaining. Do you think anymore men are going to drop in here and tell us what to say, how to feel, what to think or not thing or do – which websites we can and cannot post a link to in the comment section? Any more picking apart the everyday English language to assert their own level of oppression at the hands of women?

    Maybe we’re not breathing correctly. I think we need some more “expert” male instruction.

  13. The “cis” thing again upthread, jeeze. Err, I thought woman and transwomen was enough to distinguish the two. But then again, you don’t need the word “cis” unless you’re trying to distort the actual meaning of the word woman. If you know what a born woman is, why tack on “cis”? It’s convoluted, don’t you think? Woman aren’t born with penises. I’ve seen the word “cis” come trotting out on feminist threads about street harassment. Women complain about it, then a poster comes in and starts pointing out that we’re all “cis bitches” and we should just be grateful we pass as women at all. It’s a weird take on street harassment — as if safety isn’t the issue, no, apparently it’s about women not being grateful for giving random strangers with impulse control issues boners.

    • M.,

      The way I see it, CIS woman is a slur, too – especially to feminists and most especially to radfems because it is men, once again, trying to force gender roles – created by men to oppress us – down our throats. Men just love trying to force their things – their opinions and all their other disgusting things – down our throats, don’t they?

      CIS means that you identify with the patriarchal gender role stereotype thrust upon you at birth. It’s a really sh#tty thing to say to women who are struggling every day against things like “girls can’t do math” and “women are bad drivers.” It’s something like calling us “Uncle Toms.”

      Neko’s knickers are in a twist because we’re not respecting his man fee-fees. He’s a member of the oppressor class doing to us, right here, what men always do to us. That’s one indicator that he’s a man and not a woman – he is here exercising his god-like privilege over us – or, at least, trying to. He demands that we accept his patriarchal ideas about ourselves and if we don’t, we are “#sses.” He is so caught up in his world of make-believe that he can’t understand reality. Ultimately, this whole thing – this discussion and this CIS/trans thing – is just all about dudebros finding another creative way to shove their patriarchal authority down our throats.

  14. As feminists, we know language is important. I think one thing we should do is stop using the word “rape” when we mean “sodomy.” Men rape,but they cannot be raped – only sodomized.

    So, if you have a penis and not a vagina (no matter how you label yourself), you cannot be raped. You can only be sodomized.

    So, I don’t believe Neko was raped, although he may have been sodomized. Rape has specific consequences to women and girls, such as pregnancy, miscarriage, still births and damage to our internal organs. Men never have to worry about those things happening to them when they are sexually assaulted.

    So, I think maybe we should consider the value of using the right word, sodomy, and not rape to describe the forced penetration of men. By mislabeling it rape, we are allowing our oppressor to minimize male guilt in the crime of rape and to appropriate the victimization of girls and women. Transwomen (men) are using this to say, “See, I’m just like you ladies. I’ve been raped.” And, this is really hurting girls and women by reinforcing the patriarchal idea that we exist for men to rape and abuse.

    Men are masters at manipulating language and sometimes it takes a while to see it. But, obviously only women can be raped. Men can only be sodomized. We should stop allowing them to get away with this perversion of the language.

  15. HMQ, I’ve been doing some more looking into this transwoman thing and as far as I can tell, it’s all about being gender non-conforming.

    Well, we women are pretty much ALL gender non-conforming. We are forced into behaviors – forced (literally in my case) into dresses and bizarre hair styles that pull our hair out by the roots by our mothers, who have, also, been forced to conform.

    My parents were visiting during the past few days. So, I told my dad that had some dude with his knickers in a twist over me saying, “Men have penises.” (I had to brace him for the word, “penis,” because his generation didn’t even use medical terms – they didn’t talk about such things, at all). He was baffled – as I am still. And, the more I look into it and hear the bizarre explanations given for trans genderism, the more baffled and enraged I become.

    No one is born conforming to female gender role stereotypes. No one in their right mind (yeah, “ableism” alert) would *choose* oppression. No one would chose to be treated like dirt everywhere they went. (For instance, you wouldn’t believe what happened to me & my dad at a local shooting range over the weekend, but it involves me basically getting felt up by the dude who’s supposed to push the button for the clay pigeons *while* in the act of shooting, the guy taking MY OWN gun out of my hands, insisting on trying to load my ammo for me – ALL after I explicitly told him not to do these things and what was going to happen if he did! – NO ONE would CHOOSE this bullsh#t!) By the definition of trans woman I’ve read, we feminists are all trans men. Except, that I am a woman.

    So, I had to explain to my dad why the statement, “Men have penises,” is oppressive to men. In the course of this explanation, I thanked him for giving me first little gun when I was about 8 or 9-years old, for teaching me how to shoot, how to defend my home from men (’cause that’s why I had to learn how to do it – men breaking into our house, when I was 5-years old!), for giving me some of my earliest toys – very nice replicas of International and John Deere tractors and Matchbox (not Hot Wheels – never liked ’em) cars.

    I am a woman – and a feminist. I am not a man. Just because I like to pump iron and I’ve been known to wear a tie and fedora, does not make me anything other than what I am. And men, who ABSOLUTELY cannot leave us alone for 5 godd*amn minutes anywhere on this planet (including your blog, HMQ) are simply men, doing what they’ve always done – reasserting themselves as the controlling, perverted slave masters of women they have always been. they are. Not conforming to bizarre, oppressive social norms outside ALL HUMAN NATURE, does not make one a trans-anything. It does, however, give men another pathetic excuse to continue directing their usual B.S. at as, at very close range, if we buy this self-defeating nonsense.

    I’m not accepting this transwoman sh#t. I am not a trans man. I am a feminist, a woman and a human being. Gender is a fictional construct designed to give men a seemingly never ending range of possibilities for acting like monsters toward women. What we’re seeing here is more of the same persecution and abuse – and a bunch of liberal men, absolute TRAITORS as Dworkin pointed out in her writing, egging them on and enabling these men to abuse us – insisting that we accept it.

    Well, it ain’t going to happen, boys! This trans woman business is one of the most gender oppressive things directed at women (by liberals, too – not conservatives!) thrown at women in a while.

    I’m mighty pissed off about it. At first, I was just a little baffled, but now I’m f#cking pissed. I’m not going to have more of men’s sh#t shoved down my throat. NO, SIR!

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