It’s Been a Rough Week

I’ve told you all I needed a break from the misogyny, rape threats, death threats. However, there were things in my personal life that took up all my time this week. I was sexually assaulted last year and the harassment continued throughout the winter up to about 3 weeks ago. I had to file 2 separate complaints on this male. Both complaints were through the company he worked for although after the second complaint I made remarks to management that I was going to officially file with the police.

Someone told the abuser male I was going to the police and he did what typical abusers do, call the police on me. Men do this to get out in front of an investigation, to make themselves the victim. When the constable visited me she told me that his official complaint, what prompted this idiot to call them, was his ‘worry’ that I had filed a second sexual assault claim on him.

Can you imagine calling the police to waste time over your poor feelz about a complaint you’re not privy to? All complaints to the company are private but entitled dude thinks calling the police to find out what’s in the document is a totally good use of police time and energy.

So I spoke to the constable for about a half hour and she informed me that this dude was playing the ‘nice guy’ as in he acted ignorant about the harassment. I can almost hear the privilege:

‘I don’t know what’s going on officer. She’s just crazy. I was just being nice.’

Isn’t this such a typical thing abusers say? Women are just nuts if they don’t accept sexual assault and harassment by such a ‘nice guy.’

Anyway, the constable also told me the company was thinking of moving him to a new location so he wouldn’t have any contact with me and that he wasn’t keen on that idea. Typical. It turns out the police believed me and not his entitled ‘complaint’ and he was moved. Thank God.

This week I’ve been in touch with a women’s liason worker and we’re moving to file an order of protection. An order of protection is similar to a restraining order.

I’ll be back shortly with more coverage on the Manosphere. In the mean time, GQ came out with an excellent long article on the St. Clair Shores MRA Conference that occured last year. I kinda think it’s a good idea that Dark Horse Swore was refused entry because there were men there that think the age of consent should be 12 and the creep factor was high.

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52 thoughts on “It’s Been a Rough Week

  1. You could tell at first the constable got an earful about me from the male and she was summing me up. As soon as I spoke to her for about 10 minutes she had read me and knew I was telling the truth. I can’t believe this idiot called the cops on me because of his feelz over a confidential complaint. It really is a whole new level of entitlement. I can’t imagine calling the cops because I was butthurt over a confidential complaint if I was indeed the one that committed the crimes.

  2. Jesus. Glad the constable read your abuser correctly. God damn. These assholes most take a class. If you fuck with women, stick to these three excuses — “She’s crazy.”
    “She’s too sensitive.”
    “She’s not intelligent enough to understand what happened.” ‘Cause, women are stupid, y’all. Yeah?

    Don’t mean to derail, but, what do you think of We Hunted the Mammoth web site’s decision to shun so-called TERFs from the comment section?

    • Didn’t know Futrelle did this because I don’t read blogs by men, anymore – once I find out they are actually men and not women. But, I’m not surprised. Men always protect other men over women and these liberal men are a scourge – they are worse than the righties who openly hate us and want us dead.

      I’ve observed the pattern right here at this blog, with HMQs experiences and my own. Any allegedly feminist group run by a man is really always about men’s interests and controlling us and our conversations – what we say, how we say it, what words we use, what other blogs we link to that they don’t like, etc. There are numerous examples of this just right here in the past year or so. Some are trannies and others are men who claim not to hate women too much – but, they are all men and they are the are all the same.

    • I went to see if I could find this info. at the Futrelle site. I couldn’t. But, I do see liberal usage of this anti-woman, anti-feminist slur all over their comment sections, in general, despite the official commenting rules which do not permit the use of such slurs.

      Some people’s lives are just more important… at least, in the eyes of liberal men that’s how it is. There seems to be a hierarchy of importance and women are at the bottom of that barrel.

      • I wish I could remember the name of the thread where all hell broke loose. Rad fems of every stripe took a walk. It was brutal, and I was surprised for some reason.
        When you have a bunch of fun fems who introduce themselves as “cis,” they’re going to side with the pseudo ladies of course, because everyone knows feminism is about men and porn these days, right? I was slow to learn this, however. I’m a second wave fan, and never realized how many third wavers demonize the movement’s founding mothers and grandmothers. What they say about Mary Daly is appalling.

        • Maybe it was sometime in January? Did you see this article at this excellent blog, Secretly Radical, on this subject?: http://secretlyradical.blogspot.com/2015/01/cowardly-liberal-men-im-sick-of-your.html

          Men who involve themselves in feminism always have a selfish agenda of some kind. Anytime I’ve had even the least expectation of some kind of humanity from men I’ve been disappointed. I find the only way to not be disappointed is to avoid any contact with them. I don’t read what they write and I only respond to them here on occasion to drag them out, these loving “allies” of ours, and show them for what they really are.

          • Oh, and by the way “Terf” is definitely a slur. I know you’ve called it such before here at this blog, HMQ, and you are absolutely correct. That stammering fool is trying to say that it isn’t, but if you look up the definition of the word, “slur,” you see that it’s exactly what it is and it is speech that does shut down discussions, especially those already dominated by treacherous men.

            Here is the definition of slur from Google:

            1.
            an insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation.
            “the comments were a slur on the staff”
            synonyms: insult, slight, slander, slanderous statement, aspersion, smear, allegation;
            informal: smack talk

          • I’ve had a sinusitis infection and haven’t checked my email all week. I’ve been on these horrid antibiotics that have really messed with my system.

            I was taking Azithromycin. It set off some really bad changes in my body. I got headaches, yeast infection and a metallic/sour taste in my mouth. I was brushing my tongue three times a day.

            I’m recovering from it now. I took my last dose last night.

            I’ve just been exhausted, too much yeast in my body and I just didn’t feel too sociable.

            I will read my email soon and get back to you. Promise.

        • Oh, Geez! I think I found it. It’s at the article at WeHuntedtheMammoth from Jan. 16th, entitled, “The New Statesman’s Margaret Corvid on the ways misogyny restricts male sexuality.”

          It’s all the usual – much like the Planet Fitness locker room re-visited to read it. It’s women being run out of an online hangout in favor the menz and reading the tranny rhetoric is so much like Groundhog Day that it reminds me very much of reading MRA rhetoric. It’s the same phrases, the same exact things over and over, again, from these dudebros trying to pass themselves off as women. Extremely bizarre – like a train wreck in drag! You just can’t take your eyes off it because its so freaky deaky!

        • Adding to my previous comment after reading through the sick, testosterone-drenched commentary at the aforementioned article:

          That stammering hypocrite has finally tipped his hand completely and irrevocably. This is from his comment where he puts his foot down on the necks of women who are “phobic” of men and their meat weapons:

          “That is, transphobia is unacceptable. TERFs are not welcome here. (And though that term is sometimes misused, I don’t consider it a slur any more than “homophobe” is.)

          And so I will be asking HumorlessRadFem, who does consider herself a TERF, to move on.
          And I will do the same for anyone who is, say, defending Cathy Brennan or Janice Raymond or others like them.

          I would like this blog to be a welcoming place for trans folk and to the degree that it is not I’m open to suggestions (public or private) on how best to fix that.

          At the same time, I hope that TERF will not be used as an epithet to shut down discussion. So far, I don’t think it has been.”

          He doesn’t think that the slur, “TERF” has been a barrier to discussion there, at least, not by any real people, of course, where “real people” are defined as non-female, uterus-having beings. Clearly, no actual people were harmed by this discussion – only actual women. All the while he still claims his site is about covering the “new misogyny.”

          So, if you are a feminist who doesn’t like dicks being shoved in your face, you are not welcome at his blog. I wish I could say I’m surprised in the least bit by this development.

          Men are going to tell us stupid, “phobic” women how it is and they’re going to spearhead every effort they possibly can to define feminism for us, even to define us – to define what it means to be a woman.

          Women are only welcome as long as they don’t talk about truths and realities that might offend the poor, poor menz.

          Like I’ve said before this is about men defining reality, defining language, defining our lives, defining us and forcing their imaginary worlds on us.

          • Well, I spent a long, very entertaining, time last night reading through the comment section there. It’s pretty educational in terms seeing the pattern of how men take over feminism and then kick women out of it.

            This a.m., I went and looked at the comment section on their latest article and it appears to be mostly a bunch of men, now. Presently, they’re cannibalizing each other over “ableist” speech.

            This is why men cannot be allowed to be involved in feminism. This dudebro, Futrelle, gets invited to speak all over the place and his articles are referenced by liberal and liberal feminist websites. Dudes in feminism are saboteurs. They are raking in some cash at our expense and they are squatting right on top of us like blood-sucking demons.

          • I always knew that if I spoke on women’s issues on this blog and truly came it from that radical perspective and shut dudez down when they tried to take over that my blog wouldn’t get referenced in the media, and I’m ok with that. I’m true to my goals and that’s all I want.

          • Oh, he’s not idiot. Of course, he’s a man, so pretty much all he has to do to succeed at anything is show up. But, he has some power in this situation, which he made and he COULD do the right thing, but instead he’s making sure it’s a safe place for men and kicking women out – all the while talking about how the site is about the “new misogyny. He IS the new misogyny. He’s the chief example I could point to of what men do when they get involved with feminism and feminists and start running their yaps. My first red flag with this dude was well over a year ago or so when he went on some radio show and talked about how MRAs had “a few good points.” That’s how he opened up his dialogue before he went on to talk about all the harassment and threats they do to WOMEN – like he’s some sort of expert on that subject.

            I’m sorry you don’t get invited to speak places, HMQ, because I’ve watched your vids and your debates (there was one of those types of vids you did not too long ago) and you are excellent at stating your point. You don’t stammer when you speak, either, because you KNOW first hand what you’re talking about. You ought to be the one in his position.

          • I’m fine with being me and being here in this women’s space and not giving interviews. When a feminist org contacts me I know it’s because we share the same feminist principles. I have a good following on Twitter as many feminists have ‘found each other’ there. Basically I’m saying, women are always welcome here.

            Men don’t dominate here.

            Other than that one thread on here where there were a couple people who thought they could come in with silly terms like ‘TERF’ and ‘Cis’ this blog has been a very nice space. Many women including myself have educated people who come here and other spaces about those insidious terms.

            I’ve made it clear here and on Twitter that I’m a radfem, that I’m FOR women and I don’t subscribe to the type of transpolitics which puts men over women.

            I like to think I’ve maintained a healthy space for women and let those who would otherwise disrupt know this.

            As we’ve seen, the transpolitics that puts women at the back is quickly nipped in the bud here, not just by me, but by all the women here and I encourage that.

            I want women to be safe here and I always welcome feedback about this.

            It does sadden me that this occurred on David’s blog because I like his blog. He’s a very funny writer and he does mock MRA’s very well whereas I think I take a more serious approach because I know what kind of damage they’re doing and because as a woman I have a different sense of it and it’s us WOMEN that are affected.

            I’m fine with the way things are. If I’m asked to speak, I will. I did an interview with Newsweek and I’ve got many women who contact me personally about MRA’s in their lives which I do my best to educate and help.

            Bottom line: women are welcome here and men don’t dominate. I try to make a welcome environment for just that purpose.

          • Re: “Other than that one thread on here where there were a couple people who thought they could come in with silly terms like ‘TERF’ and ‘Cis’ this blog has been a very nice space. ”

            That was unpleasant – and you did everything you could not to have a problem with them prior to that incident – but, it was, also, very educational. I learned a lot from it. I didn’t really think it was an important problem before. I, also, didn’t realize what they were really talking about when they used some of those terms. I’ve learned a lot more since then. I now see them as a huge threat to feminism and women everywhere.

            Thanks, again, for making this a safe place for women.

          • I’m glad you find it safe b’c I know that’s something all women need. Iirc they were new to my blog and were challenging the rules. My memory isn’t the greatest but that’s what I can remember.

            They were given the rules and other women came in and told them how it was gonna be and so it became uncomfortable for them to stay with their views and I’m ok with that.

            Getting uncomfortable and leaving is sort of like me claiming the space. They won’t be able to stay with that attitude b/c nobody here will tolerate it.

            I know that the women here are women-focused and so the conversation will get uncomfortable for those who are trying to derail it into men’s issues.

            To me it’s good that I don’t have to be so aggressive and forceful with people. I guess I understand what goes on in radical women’s spaces and how they’re either being no-platformed or are constantly being invaded.

            My goal was to set out the rules in various ways from day one and attracting women who knew this was women focused.

            To me, it’s not about screaming at transactivists. It’s about claiming this space as women-centered and making it impossible for the ‘Terf’ and ‘cis’ people to be comfortable here.

            I want to be a role model for the radical feminist community by carving out space. I see it everyday how transactivists are always trying to shut women down and invade the space.

            Once I became aware of how serious this issue was, I realized I had to do something about it.

            I hope I’ve succeeded.

          • I think you have succeeded.

            I have come to see these men as just another arm of the MRM, no different from RedPill or MGTOW. The only difference is that they seem even more dangerous.

            I think we have to resist men trying to control the language – it’s difficult. Truly, they own it. But, the term women must be allowed to mean “women” and nothing more.

            I’ve done some more reading at WHtM – the comments on the Jan. 26, 2014 post are pretty entertaining and instructive.

            I learned a new term: “Cis lesbian.” Yeah, try to wrap you head ’round that one!

            The discussion and the women bowing and scraping to these imposters is so absurd as to be Pythonesque!

            I don’t see how this kind of rhetoric is going to survive the broader society (outside the ‘net), but I am concerned that there is legislation allowing men, including sex offenders, into women’s restrooms, locker rooms and prisons. Just because it’s absurd and unreasonable doesn’t mean it can’t be legislated – obviously, right?!

  3. I was a regular on We Hunted the Mammoth until the thread of doom (as it came to be known). It broke that communiy, IMHO. A mod got turfed (yes, I meant that as a pun – this topic is too dear to me to not joke about it) and HumourlessRadFem was a fair, and interesting commentor, IMHO. I never saw her say anything inappropriate to anyone while on the blog. David let some FETA’s (feminist excluding trans activists – nothing like turning the tables on them, is there?) brigand his blog and silence most of the radfems in the space. Though, to be fair, the worst of the FETA’s got the banhammer, too. It was very sad all round.

    I enjoyed the snark, but I haven’t gone there in a while, because I feel very sad about how things turned out. Also, a lot of my favourite commenters left after the thread of doom

    I hope that this hasn’t been innappropriate of me to comment about another blog in such detail, on your blog, HMQ. I have seen other WHTM regulars comment here, and the last thing that I want to do is start another flame war, or get you in the middle of some one else’s dog fight. The whole situation just kind of sucks, because I really liked WHTM, especially since I don’t usually have the stomach to wade into the manospere on my own (it’s too gross over there).

  4. Hello. I am the troublemaker who says that TERF is a slur used to silence women. I said it at WHTM and the thread of doom was the result. I had said it there before with similar result. When I said it in September many people chewed on it for over1000 comments and finally agreed that it is used as a slur regardless of whether or not it is and accurate descriptor for the group of women being targeted.
    I said it again in December and the trans who had been organizing at feministe with Aaliya brigaded the thread and David made it clear that Radical Feminists were not welcome on his blog.
    He also violated everyones trust by publicly removing mod authority because the link with factual information she provided in response to a lie, trans activist favorite lie, was offensive to the trans activists on the thread.
    None of the trans activists who had brigaded the thread stuck around once the Radical Feminists were gone. I suppose because their mission was accomplished.
    One of the War Machine threads in September is the first flare up. I don’t remember what the thread was in December where I said it again and started the thread of doom.
    Being one of those raggedy old second wave feminists I never was all that comfy on a blog where a man poses as a feminist to write hit pieces on other mens blogs. I loved the commenters wit and snark and it was a treat to be able to tell the trolls exactly what you thought of them without being told to be nice.
    So that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

    • Jeesh, I find this really damned sad. How many radfems were silenced?

      Women being silenced because they’re not going to hand power over to a bunch of transactivists who think if a biological male puts on a dress and makeup that they’re women or even who just says ‘I’m a woman’ is just terrible.

      All this after being BORN a male, socialized a male and lived in society as a male.

      This no-platforming, silencing, intimidation, mobbing, harassing, has to stop.

      Well, you’re totally welcome here and I extend this invitation to all women who want a site where we’re first.

      I really like David’s writing and his humour. I really do. I can only hope David sees this and maybe thinks on it.

      It’s not PC to put women first. You will lose your mainstream cred. Maybe he doesn’t want that?

      I don’t know what his thoughts are but in all my communications with him he’s been nothing but cordial and fair. It’s this one issue where I feel the need to be firm.

      Transppl are welcome here but they know this space is to be respected and it’s women first. I am subbed to many transppl on WordPress who write excellent pieces on gender and it’s these transppl who understand that sex isn’t gender.

      I know how it feels to be booted from TWO reddit sites and it sucks but I found that sticking to my principles was the best thing.

      I’m really sorry this happened. I’ve not looked at the threads and I really don’t want to. I have a pretty good idea how it went down, how it always goes down.

      You and other women are most certainly welcome here.

    • Oh, I just can’t resist going over there and reading the comment section. I got a cup of coffee here and there is some sort of strange pleasure I get out of reading these comments between those grounded in reality (you know, stuff like “men have penises” and “women” means “female human beings”) and this weird world where words can mean anything you want and if you don’t agree you’re going to be mansplained about all of your “misconceptions” and “bigotry.”

      Thebewilderness, I hope you stick around and I hope the other radfems who were mistreated come here, too. I think you’ll fit right in.

      I get a little hot under the collar every time I see Futrelle doing another donation drive, which he does frequently and often at insensitive times (like right during or after the Elliot Rodger murder spree, for instance) because I feel like he’s just another man capitalizing on the abuses and oppression of women. If anyone wants to donate money anywhere to a feminist cause, I think it ought to go to a woman. The HMQ is very humble in her comments, but she really is something! I wouldn’t know about any of this stuff and I wouldn’t have found my way to rad feminism if not for her. She’s informed, she’s brilliant, she cares about other people, and she’s been informing women online for a long time.

      I hope that didn’t sound too much like an advertisement, but I really mean it.

    • Thebewilderness,

      I just re-read your comment and something hit me. At least, one of the women he kicked out was a moderator there. Presumably, she was not paid. So, she was working for him, free of charge, while he rakes in the donations. …unless she was paid, of course. But, usually mods at a site (like a forum in the olden days) are volunteers!

      Again, this is why males are so dangerous – they’re always trying to get free labor out of women, take our energy, take our money, in fact, take whatever they can get and then they turn on us like a rabid dog.

      Men are nothing if not predictable.

      • She was a mod, and a very acive and, IMHO, delightful member of the community. I’m pretty sure she was not paid. Her getting her mod status revoked is the biggest thing that made me reconsider the blog as a place I wanted to be. I loved the snark and troll bashing and humour, but losing her as a mod, and in such a public way, stuck in my craw.

        Also, thebewilderness’s story is a good one to stick to.

          • Things are more serious here, but this is serious stuff that you deal with! Props to you for slogging it out day after day after day…

            I learned the value of gallows humour at work, and did indeed enjoy it at WHTM. It often makes the BS confrontable.

        • I’m the other WHTM mod and no, we don’t get paid. I never even thought to ask…

          The whole thread happened while I was at a convention and I read it a bit but I was constantly behind and by the time I got home, the comments were closed. It’s probably just as well, because if I’d been able to comment I’d have been run out as an ebil TERF too. But the way he just suddenly demodded kittehserf made me really anxious wondering when it was going to happen to me – and when I finally gathered the courage to tell him so it took him weeks and an angry follow-up email to even get a response. I honestly don’t know why I still hang out there…I’m mostly only staying on as mod because some of the ones who left are – rightly, IMO – concerned for their privacy and safety should another transwank happen and I know David isn’t going to do shit to protect them.

      • He didn’t boot Kittehs. I am sorry if I gave that impression. He didn’t boot any of us. He made an announcement in the middle of the thread where they were going after her hammer and tongs that he had removed her mod status. That violation of trust is why I became a former commenter.
        The only ones he banned, AFAIK, were the trans activists and the trans trolls who were brigading, and one poor woman who had never said a cross word to anyone except to say she was indeed a TERF.

        • Thebewilderness,

          Re: “…, and one poor woman who had never said a cross word to anyone except to say she was indeed a TERF.”

          I saw that. It was pretty appalling.

          Re: Kittehserf. Removing her MOD status was pretty hostile. You don’t have to fire someone outright if you treat them this way. Pretty much all she said to draw his and other mens’ ire there was that “Terf” is a slur used to silence women (it’s used by MRAs of all stripes, as well). This is a very true statement and the events that played out in the comment sections prove that this is true.

          I don’t think he had to boot most of the women off his site. It is clear from reading the comments that women are not very welcome there – especially lesbians and radical feminists.

          My observation, reading through the comments, is that the place has turned into some kind of politically correct liberal cult. At one point, a poster was criticized for saying, “I’m fucking terrified of men.” This poster was told that she did not word this correctly. She was not allowed to say the words in this order and should have said, “Men terrify me” or some other arrangement of words I can’t remember right now.

          This whole thing looks very weird to outsiders. Like they used to say in the old days, “It won’t play in Peoria!”

          • That wasn’t a woman saying “I am terrified of men” if it’s the incident I recall from months ago. It was the same trans person who later did the brigading and got banned. That’s why there was pushback from women. This was a person who pushed the cotton ceiling idea and then did the “That’s not what I meant!” gaslighting line when women pointed out what it really means.

          • Shifty,

            Hello! Thanks for the clarification. I didn’t read deeply enough to see when or what was at the root of the brigading. I thought the “she” who said that might be a tranny. And, I’m not entirely unsympathetic to such people. I can certainly understand why anyone would be terrified of men (including other men who don’t fit the macho mold). In fact, I’m so terrified of men that I don’t let them in my house unless absolutely necessary (repair-work) and I rarely go outside. So, I can understand the original statement, but I didn’t get that it was related to a “cotton ceiling” discussion. I may have to go back and find that. I saw Cathy Brennan’s name dragged through the mud a few times. I didn’t understand that. I recall Dave saying he didn’t want anyone speaking favorably of her or another woman there (whose name I’d never heard before). I noticed that lots of people were walking on eggshells throughout this discussion and even in some more recent articles’ comment sections there, I noticed people calling each other out for alleged offenses and insensitivities to the point that it looked kind of McCarthyite.

            The whole thing is a little hard for a third-party observer to sort out. But, I’m brewing some tea right now… maybe I’ll go over and read some more about how the brigading went down.

            Another observation I have about this is that it shows, once again, how men’s efforts are often far more organized than they appear on the surface. Many times what appears to be a one-off from men, or maybe just a bad personal experience with one of them, is actually part of an organized effort.

            I was going to do a blog sometime on the subject of conspiracies – if people think the JFK assassination or Pearl Harbor were big conspiracies then they should recognize that the biggest conspiracy ever is what men have been doing to women since time immemorial. Nothing they do to us is an isolated incident or something happening in a vacuum! This brigading is just another example.

          • I’ve spoken to Cathy on Twitter. She doesn’t take one ounce of shit and I appreciate that. Julie BIndel is also no-platformed as well.

            The silencing of women b/c they dare to say ‘penis is male’ or that people born with XY chromosomes are male is just beyond ridiculous.

            I can wear suits and ties and perform the male ‘gender’ but it doesn’t make me male.

          • I first heard of her when a liberal male objected to a blogpost you linked to, which contained a blogroll that included Cathy’s blog. What is up with these men freaking out over a link on someone’s blog?! But, it seems to be a liberal male thing – they have all kinds of hyper-emotional knee jerk reactions to certain things for reasons that only fellow members of their cult can fully understand.

            So, I went and checked out Cathy’s blog. I think maybe you’ve linked to her before, too. I’ve listened to her on podcasts. I’ve read most of her blog and I have yet to run across anything she’s said that isn’t totally reasonable.

            The menz don’t like her because she actually hands some of their bullshit right back to them on a silver platter.

  5. I also used to comment on whtm. I felt it was a reasonably safe space but that was clearly incorrect. In terms of the thread of doom, I also felt responsible. The fact is some aggressors came in from elsewhere with the express intention of bringing someone down, and David allowed it to happen. That’s unacceptable.

    • Sorryno,

      The fault for what happened there rests solely on the shoulders of the blog’s owner. What occurred was a typical MANipulation of women and women’s tendency to give the benefit of the doubt, to play fair, to go along to get along. The dudebros who launched the brigade are well acquainted with how to MANipulate because the were born to male privilege, to the idea that men come first and what women want – our saying, “No,” to a man in any way, including sexually (which was an element in that disgusting series of events there) – is an affront that cannot be tolerated.

      To this subset of the MRM, women who say, “No,” to men are now “bigots” and “transphobes.” It’s not much different from the tactics of the mainstream group, they just use different terms.

    • I was a regular on WHTM too (with a different nym), and no woman was responsible for what happened. Nope. It’s DF’s blog, and he wants a nice, friendly, libfem space. One were the men could be comfy.

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