LibFeminists Attack aka PragmaticUselessness is Not Pro-Feminist

Here’s some of the fallout from my Totally Excellent Radical Feminist proposition that females aren’t males and that we deserve our own spaces.

I used to subscribe to this bi-sexual dude PragmaticUselessness on Youtube. I felt that he did an average job at dismissing MRA’s. It wasn’t long before I found out women’s biological and social realities don’t matter and our spaces should be accessible to men wearing Revlon. He went to Twitter after I schooled him that males aren’t females and called me a twanzphobe.

Let’s bring up a rare genetic syndrome to make ZERO argument that males are females!

Yawn. Let’s use Turner’s syndrome, a rare genetic condition affecting XX (the latter X is partial but no Y) FEMALES to argue that men in dresses are women!

Then he went to his Youtube video and told me

pragmatic MRA2

Gender! He claims he’s a feminist but doesn’t know what gender is. So I gave him a link to this great post  What is a woman? | The Feministahood  outlining in detail that women are not men and have a completely different experience in the world due to our biological realities and the subsequent gendered socialization that takes place upon our bodies.

Instead of reading it he immediately went onto Twitter and started whining with his Turners syndrome ‘argument.’ Eventually he went silent because well, he has no argument and he knows it. So another twanz political coward gets fact-checked and sulks off Twitter.

HouseMouseQueen-1, MRA-0

pragmatic MRA

He rattled off some more inane crap that I just didn’t have the patience to correct. I gave him the link and goofball male was so sure he was right that he never read it.

This ‘group’ on Youtube contains several other people. I’ve known about this group for a while and even considered a couple of them friends. One such member is ExtremelyBoring. She’s had to distance herself from me because the group, which is mainly male, are challenged by radical feminism and insist on labeling me a ‘TERF’ and twanzphobe for my insistence that female biology and socialization is completely different than males.

EB knows I like her as a person. I typically enjoy conversing with her when the group isn’t policing her. This subject brought out more policing on Youtube.

We were talking about intersex people and I made the point that little kids as young as 5 were being hauled off to special Gender Clinics to have hormones implanted in their arms because the child wasn’t doing gender properly for their sex. I mentioned 2 documentaries that I had seen. One of the documentaries was shown to me on Twitter so I don’t have the link but the other one is Louis Theroux’s ‘Transgender Kids’ which came out a couple weeks ago. I wish I could give you a link to the Dailymotion copy but it’s been removed for copyright. If someone has a copy please post it in the comment section.

Theroux talked to several young children who were avoiding puberty with drugs and thought they were the opposite sex. I tried explaining to EB that this medicalization of gender is extremely worrying. A 5 year old male child should be allowed to develop normally, to know his body before it’s stuffed with chemicals and ideas that he’s in the wrong body. The transpolitical narrative assumes that a boy who plays with dolls MUST be a girl and MUST be given corrective chemicals and therapy or else.

Or else what?

Transpolitics puts gender on a pedestal, contrary to radical feminist analysis where we understand that gender has a patriarchal purpose, where feminine is inferior to the masculine, where little girls with vaginas are prescribed a set of behaviours that could only be described as terrorism. Why can’t a boy play with dolls and wear dresses? Why can’t he just be himself? Why does he have to be taken to a special clinic to cure him? Children who aren’t stuffed with implants and who are allowed to do atypical gendered things usually just develop into a gay boy or a lesbian girl.

What’s wrong with that?

1That’s exactly what’s happening. I loved the bit about socially acceptable behaviour because what Transpolitics is all about is strictly enforcing the rule that a male child must be a girl if he displays certain gendered behaviours that are considered ‘feminine.’ Parents are playing that role, forcing these kids into clinics and entertaining the child’s delusions.

When I told her that our biological realities matter as women I was met with this

2Talk about erasing female bodies and our lives. This person considers herself a feminist. My response to her was concise and I refrained from snark because I quite like her but I still can’t grasp why she’s so ignorant. I asked her to think about it because I truly was shocked.

Don’t worry. Superman came in to save her from the big meaning twanzphobe.

3She responded quickly after that. They must’ve been on a Skype hangout whispering evil words about the horrible radfem that actually thinks women deserve their own spaces.

4So it kinda sorta matters but not really that much if you evil radfems would stop asking for women’s spaces. So I made a simple point about pregnancy, ya know, that thing that only happens to women’s bodies and sets us up for a whole host of issues that only we experience.

The response. Wait for it, wait for it.

 

 

5

 

WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZ!!!!!!!!

Case closed.

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28 thoughts on “LibFeminists Attack aka PragmaticUselessness is Not Pro-Feminist

  1. “She’s had to distance herself from me because the group”

    I actually started to distant myself because of certain things you said. There was one blog post in particular that I strongly disagreed with (I don’t remember which one otherwise I would let you know what it was exactly). At the time I had thought about replying to it, but I often go through phases where I need a break from arguments, and I was still annoyed by certain people because yes, some people have tried to get me on the bandwagon when it comes to you, and all that crap is something I’ve tried to avoid participating in so even when I do disagree with you, most of the time I don’t feel like sharing because of them and I know they’re not against dogpiling. By the way, I didn’t discuss it with BigLundi before or after he commented. The timing just happened that way. Although I can’t blame you for suspecting that had happened, because sometimes people do that where they discuss things on skype and then make comments together.

    I made another reply to that conversation. Not sure if you’ve replied or even read it yet. I still disagree with some of the things you’ve said there, but I do feel we might also be misinterpreting each other to some degree, which could be mostly my fault because I couldn’t have been as detailed as I could have been. I haven’t checked the documentaries yet, but I do plan to try to find them at some point. I’m going on a vacation tomorrow and will be gone for a couple weeks so it might be a while. If it wasn’t for the vacation thing, I might have written a comment on Captain Andy’s video about you, which I happened to dislike. Maybe when I get back.

    Since I’m here, I might as well mention that I took issue with this part of your post, “Children who aren’t stuffed with implants and who are allowed to do atypical gendered things usually just develop into a gay boy or a lesbian girl.”

    Sexuality isn’t dependent on gender. There might be some influence involved, for example those who are more atypical might be more open minded, but that statement comes off as perpetuating stereotypes, both with people who aren’t heterosexual and people who do atypical gendered things.

    • You distanced yourself b/c of certain things you can’t even remember! Amazing. AMAZING!

      I guess the group will point you to the direction of my horrid woman-focused speech sooner or later. I honestly don’t care about those people. I truly don’t. I find them repulsive in their delusions and group dynamics. I find it strangely predictable.

      So little girls aren’t socialized into femininity based on sex? ie gender? What planet do you live on? Girls are taught endless things about being a ‘girl’ and it’s precisely those ‘things’ that males perform and then think they have the audacity to silence, no platform, harass, threaten women.

      Sex is dependent on chromosomes. XX is female and XY is male. Now please don’t bring up rare anomalies to argue that biological males who suddenly think they’re woman are actually women. Please don’t. That’s old hat.

      I have no idea why you’re mentioning sexuality as that’s not what’s being discussed here. The only thing I said, and is true, that male children who perform gender by say, wearing dresses or liking ‘girly things’ usually turn out to be gay males. That is, unless their parents stuff them full of implants and tell them that they must be a girl, which is impossible because they were born male.

      Males aren’t females. Females deserve their own spaces away from biological males. It’s not complicated and I feel like you’re making it obtuse so you don’t have to take a position.

      • “You distanced yourself b/c of certain things you can’t even remember! Amazing. AMAZING!”

        Yep, my memory isn’t perfect. I only remember vaguely what it was about. Certain things haven’t been helping much either.

        “I honestly don’t care about those people. I truly don’t. I find them repulsive in their delusions and group dynamics.”

        Can’t blame you there.

        “So little girls aren’t socialized into femininity based on sex? ie gender? What planet do you live on?”

        Have I said anywhere that they aren’t? I don’t recall doing so at any point.

        “Sex is dependent on chromosomes.”

        Ok, so what exactly are you arguing and how is this relevant to that? On youtube when we were talking, I felt like you were arguing about one thing and in the next comment it seemed like you were trying to say something else. It’s difficult to have a productive conversation that way.

        “I have no idea why you’re mentioning sexuality as that’s not what’s being discussed here.”

        It might not have been central to this post, but you still wrote it and it’s something I took issue with. I disagree with you that it’s true. I have always found that to be a stereotype. Some do fit into that, but I certainly wouldn’t say most. Wouldn’t you have any issues if for example, people continued to call someone gay just because they expressed some form of femininity?

        “It’s not complicated and I feel like you’re making it obtuse so you don’t have to take a position.”

        I have a position. I just haven’t expressed it in detail, partially due to laziness and partially due to so far trying to figure out all your reasoning behind your stance (which I’m still not 100% clear on) instead of focusing on what I believe.

        On whether or not it’s complicated, I would have to have a better idea of what your stance is, why you think it’s important, and your reasoning behind it before agreeing that it’s not complicated.

        • So let me get this straight. You’re coming to my blog to tell me ‘I don’t like you can’t name a single thing and are blaming it on your memory. That’s pretty silly especially when you’ve now commented twice on this blog and continue to say

          ‘I still disagree with some of the things you’ve said there,’

          Referrring to Youtube which you still can’t explain here. I suppose you’re just saying nothing right now.

          You’ve really not said a thing.

          You mentioned sexuality. I don’t know what that has to do with anything so maybe you’d like to explain how that has anything to do with transgender?

          I brought up the trajection of boys and girls who simply becomes gay and lesbian when they’re allowed to develop without having implants stuck in their arms and they aren’t subjected to this lunacy of ‘changing your sex’ through surgery, which you can’t do anyway no matter how hard you try.

          My position is very clear and I’ve said it many times now.

          Transpeople cannot change sex. A biological male remains a biological male no matter how many surgeries or how much makeup he wears. This goes for females too.
          Females, being of different biology deserve their own spaces free of biological males. We women do not deserve harassment, no platforming, silencing, canceling women-focused events because some dude in a dress has an issue with it. Women have their own needs and deserve their own spaces.

          This is not complicated.

          • “You’re coming to my blog to tell me ‘I don’t like you”

            I could be misreading this, but if you think I came here to tell you I don’t like you, that’s not the case. If I didn’t like you at all, I wouldn’t be replying. I’m merely stating that I don’t agree with everything you say, and explaining that I decided to maintain some distance because I decided myself to based on some things you said that you’ve obviously taken quite a leaning towards. I can understand why you might think my actions may be influenced by a certain group from youtube, but it’s quite insulting. So is me trying to be fair in our conversations, but you don’t seem to be doing the same for me. And yes, I did come to your blog. I’m mentioned in it a few times.

            “Referrring to Youtube which you still can’t explain here.”

            What am I supposed to be explaining?

            “You’ve really not said a thing.”

            I’ve said many things, but maybe just not what you’re looking for.

            “I don’t know what that has to do with anything”

            I was responding to a specific statement you made in the blog post which I quoted. Sexuality doesn’t have anything to do with people who are trans. Based on your comment, you seem to think it does though.

            “My position is very clear and I’ve said it many times now.”

            So your position is that because people can’t change sex, which is only based on chromosomes, trans women shouldn’t be allowed in women only spaces? To what extent would you say women need their own spaces? Should trans women be allowed in any of them? Do you think people who are trans have nothing of importance they could add to conversations? In places meant only for those who are XX, would you deny some of them from that space despite being a woman? I know you consider it a rarity to be dismissed, but intersex people do exist. Would you accept one that had been raised as a woman? Maybe one that didn’t even find out they were intersex until adulthood? Do you think of trans women as basically being the same as cis men? Even if you can’t accept them as women, would you consider that their experiences don’t fit into those who are cis men either? Your opinion seems based primarily on the fact that we live in a very gendered society. Lets forget how things are for just a second, and things can be any way you want them to be. Do you think trans people wouldn’t exist? If they did, is there any way you would accept trans women as women? Would you still be insistent on having women only spaces? I’m not just interested in what your stance is now and the reasoning behind it, but also what it would be if everything to you was ideal.

            I know that was a lot of questions, and I almost added more, but I don’t actually expect you to answer all of them. I suppose it would be nice if you did, but can’t blame you if you don’t want to spend the time on that. But that’s pretty much where my head is. Wondering what you think about stuff like that. Not sure if that will help things or not. Anyways, won’t be able to get back to you in a while. I’ll check back when I can.

          • Sexuality has nothing to do with trans people. I’ve never said it does. Please quote me.

            So your position is that because people can’t change sex, which is only based on chromosomes, trans women shouldn’t be allowed in women only spaces?

            Correct. Women only spaces are for women. Biological males are not women. Women deserve this space as we are an oppressed sex class.

            To what extent would you say women need their own spaces?

            We need them when we desire them. I don’t have to get approval from males to have a space set for women only.

            Should trans women be allowed in any of them?

            When it’s desired by all the women it can be considered.

            Do you think people who are trans have nothing of importance they could add to conversations?

            Depends. However, when women want their own spaces, they should be respected. I don’t have to send in an approval form to a bunch of males who don’t share my female experience so they can Ok it. That’s male domination and oppression of women.

            In places meant only for those who are XX, would you deny some of them from that space despite being a woman?

            They aren’t women. How many times must I explain this. So I’m now going to ask you: Why do you not see the difference between males and females? Do men get pregnant? Do men menstruate? Are males socialized the way a biological female is? If your answers to those questions are honest then you’ll acknowledge that women are different and when we desire our own spaces, it should be respected without question.

            I know you consider it a rarity to be dismissed, but intersex people do exist.

            It IS a rarity. Don’t change the subject. We’re talking about males who say they’re women.

            Would you accept one that had been raised as a woman?

            An intersex person still has a chromosomal sex. Besides, we’re not talking about the anomalies. We’re talking about biological males who insist they’re females when they’re not.

            Do you think of trans women as basically being the same as cis men?

            They’re biological males. I don’t know what other terminology you want to use but they’re not women, not female. ‘Cis’ is a bullshit term in my view. There is one word to describe biological females: women. It’s been around forever and it works.

            Even if you can’t accept them as women, would you consider that their experiences don’t fit into those who are cis men either?

            I dunno. I just know what they’re not. I know men don’t have women’s biology nor will they ever.

            Your opinion seems based primarily on the fact that we live in a very gendered society.

            We do and it’s made worse by transdudes who go around saying they’re women simply because they ‘feel’ like it. If I said i was African and sent rape and death threats to African’s who wanted their own space I’d be a complete asshole. I’d be in denial. That’s MRA crap. I’m not African. If I insisted they inform me of their need for space and they had to get my approval I’d be an asshole and a racist too. I’d be playing a silly game, saying I’m something I’m not, twisting reality to suit some power-over agenda. That’s what biological males do to women. We must get their approval now for space? Fuck that. Might as well be an MRA.

            Gender is the set of behaviours that are assigned to someone based on their sex. Gender is bullshit. Transppl worship at the altar of gender. Males put on dresses, makeup and heels and them demand women admit them to their spaces. Gender is due to patriarchy. Patriarchy sets up behaviours for each sex and women get the short end. Males get taught how to be masculine, which means superior to women, while women are viewed as inferior. This is our reality but I wish to eliminate gender altogether and that makes me a radical feminist.

            Lets forget how things are for just a second, and things can be any way you want them to be. Do you think trans people wouldn’t exist? If they did, is there any way you would accept trans women as women? Would you still be insistent on having women only spaces? I’m not just interested in what your stance is now and the reasoning behind it, but also what it would be if everything to you was ideal.

            We only know that trans people exist b/c there’s a definition, a classification through gender and sex. I will never accept males as females. Even if gender was eliminated, women would still need their own spaces due to our biological realities. Men cannot get pregnant and they can never understand what that’s like, along with a limitless amount of other things only women experience.

            If things were ideal gender would be dead. Males would wear whatever they want and so would females. If a male child wore a dress we wouldn’t entertain the delusion that he was actually female. He’d just wear his dresses and whatnot. Nobody would bother about it. People would live their lives wearing whatever they want. I’m willing to bet if gender was done away with, so would transworld. It just doesn’t make sense to fill your head with shit you’re not. The only way males think they’re ‘women’ is by imagining what a woman is and mimicking that with outward appearance. It’s not the real thing. There will always be biological sex and we are different. That’s life. The only problem with gender is that patriarchy’s invention that ‘femininity’ must be inferior to ‘masculinity.

            If you think biological females have the same material and experiential reality as biological males then I can’t help you. That epic denial of reality isn’t tolerated by me because it then means women are 1) not an oppressed class by patriarchy and 2) aren’t entitled to their own spaces.

            I will never accept something so obviously wrong as to say ‘males know what it’s like to menstrate’ therefore I must admit them to a woman only group and deny actual women so the dude can entertain his delusion.

            I will never accept that males know what it’s like to live in a female body with all it’s attendant functions. I’m a radical feminist that is women-focused. It means I dedicate myself to ending the oppression of women by men through patriarchy. If I can’t name my oppressor then I can’t do a single bit of activism against my oppressor. Women need their own spaces and we don’t have to get male approval.

            I’ve seen too many transdudes threaten rape to women online. I’ve seen too many women-focused events be cancelled and sidelined by dudes who ‘feel like a woman’ but think they can dictate what women’s biological realities are despite never having lived in a female body. I’ve seen women’s artistic works have to be re-done because males don’t feel like it speaks to them. Odd innit?

          • I think this is the bottom line right here where you said: “If you think biological females have the same material and experiential reality as biological males then I can’t help you.”

            These people can’t be helped. People who can’t look at a round object and see that it doesn’t go into a square hole or who can’t recognize basic things like right from left – kindergarten stuff, which is what this is – can’t be helped.

            Maybe this is a cult. I don’t know. But, this silliness won’t fly outside their little role playing game fantasy world.

        • Lazy. Yes.
          Being vague doesn’t win you any points here. Gender conformity is bad, biological reality is still reality.

  2. Well, having been raped a bunch of times I can tell you that the pregnancy thing, is in fact, a very big deal. Also, being of child-bearing years and being raped and then miscarrying because of internal injuries caused by the rape is, also, a phenomenally big deal. Being raped while pregnant is, also, a very big an very disturbing deal, as well. When men (including men who feel “fragile” and imagine that they are women) are sodomized by other men, they don’t have to deal with these things. Yes, other people have problems, but what is wrong with talking about what happens to US, especially when we form our own groups for this express purpose????

    • But, but, that’s TWANZPHOBIA!

      I look at it this way:

      Imagine there’s 10 spots at a doctor’s office whereby they want to discuss pregnancy termination after a violent rape.

      Do men who ‘feel’ like a woman and say ‘I’m a woman’ get to take those spaces?

      If everyone answered that honestly we women wouldn’t be having these problems. We wouldn’t be consistently erased from the very facts of our biology and subsequent experiences.

      • On a personal note, it’s a little painful for me to read a woman who I thought was a feminist saying that the consequences of rape to our reproductive organs and subsequently to the possibilities of new life are “not much of a point.” That’s cold and inhumane speech.

      • Dudebro says: “oh so all of a sudden i’m an idiot because i don’t think gender is dependent on what genitals you have? or what chromosomes you have? got it”

        Good, I’m glad he got it. But, I don’t think it’s “all of a sudden” and it’s too bad he’s too big of an idiot to understand it.

        The arguments these idiots use are all the same. It’s really like an episode of the Twilight Zone. Have all these people suddenly gone stupid? Did they drink an alien potion that suddenly made them unable to recognize basic reality. Or maybe somebody invented a special raygun that makes people only able to tell lies, to say that what is right side up is upside down and what is black is white and so on.

        • All this after I gave him that wonderful expose. He could’ve read it and actually comprehended it but in typical MRA fashion he went on and on and on. Men don’t like being wrong when a woman is correcting them. They dig their little heels in and call you names. It’s quite funny actually watching them act like 3 year olds.

          I was incredibly fair to him. I gave him a chance to learn simple basic concepts I learned in fucking 5th grade.

          The purpose of Transworld is to erase females. It’s another MRA movement only more insidious. They pretend they’re women and then tell biological females their life stories in an effort to erase us all.

          Safe spaces. What’s that? Women can’t have that. Nope. Our sex-based oppression is all in our heads.

          This is liberal ‘feminism’ in a nutshell.

          Click!

          All those life experiences women have are snuffed out.

  3. So, I’m thinking – what is the best way to deal with these people?

    Obviously, in your case you are doing the job of exposing them and without you there’s a whole lot of stuff, especially related to the MRM, that I would be clueless about. So, you have your own purpose for engaging and subsequently exposing them.

    But, I’m thinking if I ever ran across someone like this outside the internet, shunning would be a good option. People who tell big whoppers (the Baron Munchausens of the world) usually don’t have a lot of friends because people don’t want to hear their tall tales. Men who think they’re women are no different from men who think they’re CIA agents, even though they’re actually janitors. So, I think my first strategy would be to refuse to indulge their delusions and then just get as far away from them as possible.

    Of course, this really seems like a liberal problem. This whole thing makes me happy to live in one of those parts of the U.S. that liberals hate and regularly disparage. In fact, I feel a sense of heightened personal safety every time I read a hateful liberal comment about this part of the country and the people who live here. Fortunately, I don’t see Planet Fitness moving in here anytime soon!

  4. I like “Totally Excellent Radical Feminist”. I also like “Totally Excellent Radical Feminist Proposition.” You inspire me to set out a few personal thoughts about what’s going on.

    Totally Excellent Radical Feminist Propositions

    TERFP #1: “Gender” means the dual social construction of “man” and “woman”. “Sex” is a scientific term referring to the sperm-carrying (male) and egg-carrying (female) members of any species which reproduces sexually.

    #2: “Social construction of man and woman” in the context of feminism means a set of behaviors, expectations, and limitations, constructed as part of a narrative by the dominating sociopolitical group, here, males as a group, and is equivalent to “gender roles”.

    #3: The social construction “man” is generally congruent with the needs and desires of males since it has been constructed by the dominatory group. Men are socialized into their gender role of appropriating women’s labor, time, and reproductive and sexual capacities from an early age.

    #4: The social construction “Woman” is generally distorted and incongruent with the needs and desires of females since it is defined primarily by females’ subordination, utility and value to the dominating group. Gender roles of women enforce the global subordination of females as a sex. Women are socialized into such roles at an early age.

    #5. The object of feminism is to end the domination of males over females in the broader context of transforming hierarchical social relationships based on coercion, into egalitarian social relationships based on cooperation.

    #6: When this transformation is complete, gender as a concept will either disappear or be transformed into a set of equally-valued roles that accurately reflect women’s needs and desires as well as mens’, once women’s needs and desires become freely known.

    #7: “Transgenderism” is broadly a philosophy and movement which seeks to validate individual males’ desires, needs, and actions to adopt the gender role of “Woman” and individual females’ desires to adopt the gender role of “Male”.

    #8: Males cannot become biological females,

    #9: Men adopting women’s gender roles (and vice versa) have always existed and are not objectionable to feminists per se.

    #9: Men adopting women’s gender roles who make certain claims are, however maintaining and strengthening the distorted and incongruent gender roles of women and thereby are acting as dominators, and such claims are inimical to females. Examples of such claims include: the claim that gender roles are not social constructions but inborn, which supports the idea that females are innately subordinate; that males can become biological females by adopting subordinate women’s gender roles; that dominatory male socialization automatically ends when such women’s gender roles are adopted; and that female socialization into subordination is not a problem when such a male inserts himself into female groups.

    #10: Transgender activism is focused on radical feminism because radical feminists resist the arbitrary women’s gender roles transgenderists are engaged in validating and strengthening; because they resist male infiltration into female groups that results in the insertion of a male-dominated hierarchy due to lifelong socialization of both sexes; because they resist transgender males who purport to speak for females and feminists as “lesbians” “feminists”, “men’s rights activists” and so on, promoting transgenderism and male behavior rather than female liberation; because they resist male infiltration into female groups which removes female’s protections from predatory socialized male behavior as well as the inhibiting fear of such potential behavior; and because they resist the utter failure of transgenderism to differentiate among males seeking to enter female spaces, including cross-dressing heterosexual males, predatory males, and transgender males who wish to live as genderized women on a permanent and sincere basis.

    #11: Rather than attempting to find ways to co-exist with radical feminists, some transgenderists are engaging in typically masculine role behaviors such as coercion, threats of violence, infiltration, reversal, propaganda, power plays, undercutting, adopting and reiterating delusory concepts, and so on. Such actions make principled engagement impractical and harden the relative positions. Such actions remove attention from legitimate transgenderist concern regarding male violence and social stigma against them created by the dominating group. Such actions derail radical feminist liberatory work. Such actions harm transitioning people as they are based on distracting delusion and propaganda rather than their real social and psychological problems. Such actions are inimical to women’s liberation.

    #12: Some queer activist organizations appear to have confused androgeny, role-playing, casual gender-bending, and attempts to end genderism, for transgenderism, to the detriment especially of lesbians, who have historically been members of and supporters of queer organizations. One result is their increasing use of the ostensible slur word, “TERF”. However, “Totally Excellent Radical Feminist” is not a slur but a recommendation to all to support the ongoing efforts of radical feminist to support women’s liberation.

  5. Correction, the last word of TERFP#7 should be “Man”. The first word of both #9 should be “Males”. The numbering fell off the planet with two #9s. I’m sure there are other errors like these, for which I apologize in advance as I can’t edit.

  6. Pingback: Libfem’s Critical MRA Analysis: Females Who Want Space Are Sluts, Whores, Cunts and Nazis | Mancheeze

  7. Finally got a chance to see your response and reply. Thank you. I’m a bit tired so hopefully I won’t leave out anything important I wanted to mention.

    “Why do you not see the difference between males and females? Do men get pregnant? Do men menstruate? Are males socialized the way a biological female is?”

    I see minor biological sex differences, but I think my opinion of how important they are is different from yours. Like you, I would like gender to be completely eliminated. That is in my opinion ideal. But I think it’s also important to change our understanding on sex, and no longer think of it as a binary. And I’d like it to have as little importance as possible, so it’s not given any extra thought outside of when it’s necessary, such as with medical care.

    Men are typically socialized differently than women. I’d like that to change. So I have differing views based on what it could be like if gender was eliminated and based on how society is now.

    “it should be respected without question.”

    The without question thing bugs me a bit, simply because I think everything should be questioned. I think people should question more, regardless of whatever “side” they’re on. Not just the ideas of those they perceive to be wrong, but also themselves and what they think is right.

    “An intersex person still has a chromosomal sex. Besides, we’re not talking about the anomalies.”

    With some intersex people they still either have male or female chromosomes, but some have neither. Anomalies add up. Even just 1% of the world’s population (and there’s more than 1% of intersex people) is 70 million people. If one of them who appears as female but has the chromosomes of a male or one that has neither XX or XY showed up at a group you set up for women, had been socialized as a woman throughout their life and didn’t know they were intersex until their teens or adulthood, had been raped and abused because of being seen as a woman, what would you do? Ignore them as if they don’t exist? Accept them? Deny them because they don’t fit into what you see makes a female and a woman?

    With female only spaces, I have mixed feelings and it depends on the type of space. I understand why many women would feel more comfortable with that set up. Further, I can understand why some would want to exclude men from at least some things as a precaution considering the many stories I’ve read about problems from male feminists being abusive towards women they’ve met in feminist groups. It could possibly also be helpful in trying to eliminate or minimize internalized misogyny. All of this within the perspective of how things are now.

    However, if things changed, I’m not sure if I would agree that there would be good reasons for female only spaces. I’m also hesitant about female only spaces now for a variety of reasons, some of which I won’t go over to keep things short. I’ll stick with the subject of bathrooms for now as that’s a popular one. I find separating bathrooms based on sex to be silly, and feel that it helps enforce gender. I hope you can understand why someone would think that kind of separation would enforce gender, but if you’d like me to explain why I think that, you can ask.

    I guess another hesitation I have with denying trans women access to groups is that while their experiences may differ from cis women (I know you dislike the term cis and I have some issues with it as well but I find it easiest to use), their experiences aren’t like cis men either and as they transition, they begin to share similar experiences. Not every single one like bleeding out of a vagina, but how we’re treated as women by men. I think there’s a lot that they could add to the conversation if we let them and I don’t think we need to worry about them like with cis men. Another thing is that I see them similar to people who are intersex. In our current society they’re not accepted as men or women, they deal with oppression, and are often ignored and excluded. You might not accept trans women as women, but I can’t put them in the same category as men. Even if I didn’t accept them as women, I would still want to include them as much as possible because of their position in society.

    “I’m willing to bet if gender was done away with, so would transworld.”

    I can’t say for certainty either way, but I personally would be willing to bet that even in a genderless society, there would be people with dysphoria. My position as of now, is that we live in a gendered society. I wish to not have a gender, but considering how things are now, I certainly can’t blame someone for wanting to be the gender they feel is right and I would be supportive of them. In a genderless society, I would hope things are radically different enough so there’s not really a social distinction between people based on sex differences. If someone has a vagina, then they have a vagina, regardless if they were born with it or not. It wouldn’t concern me or anyone else in the slightest what’s between a person’s legs or how they got it. The only person who would need to find it relevant at all would be their doctor.

    • gender isn’t sex.

      Your position is failed on that regard. Plus, bringing up intersex. YAWN.

      Second, being born female with all its attendant oppressions isn’t a minor difference. That’s why in some countries, females aren’t even allowed to be born. Women cannot drive in some countries, Women don’t have access to reproductive services, abortion rights are stripped away, we are battered, raped and excluded from jobs due to our biology. That’s not a small difference. That’s the entire reason for the feminist movement. It’s a women’s movement, not a party for men.

      FYI, you’re pulling the lame ass point of intersex, who DO NOT like being included in trans btw. Intersex still means you have a sex. So again, bringing up intersex in the sense that it makes any difference to women needing their own spaces and experience a primary oppression being BORN female is a lame ass point. It’s not even an argument.

      You say male feminist abuse women only spaces, as if trans’males’ aren’t males and aren’t the major abusers of female only space of which they are. You’re living in some alternate world. Not this one. You can’t be this ignorant.

      Nothing changes your sex. There are only two sexes. No amount of neoliberal crap will change that. Sex is not gender. Females having their own washrooms is necessary for our safety, if you’re really considering the world as we know it.

      If trans want their own spaces, own washrooms, go for it but nope, you expect women to just play right along and erase any tiny bit of female culture.

      You say female only space should be questioned as if we have to petition men or ask them if we can have it. That’s not feminist. That’s not liberation of women. that’s more enslavement. You’re more concerned with male feelings than you are with women’s rights to safety.

      Basically, I don’t even know why you responded. It’s clap trap.

      Oh and at the end you colluded sex and gender, again.

      Then you say this amazingly ignorant shit:
      If someone has a vagina, then they have a vagina, regardless if they were born with it or not. It wouldn’t concern me or anyone else in the slightest what’s between a person’s legs or how they got it. The only person who would need to find it relevant at all would be their doctor.

      OMG. I just can’t believe you just said a vagina is just a hole. It has a significant meaning to women.

      Nah, you’re just a handmaiden for patriarchy. You think women should beg and plead for space away from males, just like begging a batterer not to beat. You want women in their places, asking nicely for permission.

      You don’t understand the difference between sex and gender and are doing the typically ignorant thing of conflating them and then bringing up intersex, which has no bearing on this whatsoever.

      It’s impossible for someone who reads these blogs not to know the transmale violence done to women. The threats, the ending of the Vagina Monologues, Michfest, the no platforming, end of female only schools, yeah, any female culture is being destroyed by men and you’re totally ok with that.

      • “gender isn’t sex”

        I know.

        “being born female with all its attendant oppressions isn’t a minor difference.”

        I was speaking strictly in terms of biological differences, as that is what you had asked if I thought there was any. Maybe I should have been more clear that I wasn’t including culture in that, but I thought it would have been obvious.

        “Intersex still means you have a sex.”

        And yet later on you say there’s only two sexes. Sigh.

        “It’s not even an argument.”

        You’re being dismissive and seem to wish they didn’t even exist because it doesn’t fit perfectly within your male vs female narrative. Otherwise you’d be able to answer the question I asked.

        “Nothing changes your sex.”

        Maybe if you have such a limited notion of sex as you do which seems to be based only on chromosomes without taking anything else into account.

        “Females having their own washrooms is necessary for our safety”

        Is there some invisible barrier blocking out the rapists that will suddenly dissipate if trans women or men are allowed in? Is it impossible to change how restrooms are set up to allow for more privacy? Is it possible to ever achieve a genderless society if we continue to treat males and females as inherently different, so much to the degree that they need to piss and shit in separate rooms?

        “tiny bit of female culture.”

        Having a restroom for females only is part of a female culture?

        “You say female only space should be questioned as if we have to petition men or ask them if we can have it.”

        That’s not what I said. Not even close. Start with questioning your own opinions and listening to the questions other females are raising. Challenge yourself. Maybe then you could defend your position better. Or at least realize that things aren’t so black and white.

        “You’re more concerned with male feelings than you are with women’s rights to safety.”

        No, I’m concerned with what makes sense.

        “Oh and at the end you colluded sex and gender, again.”

        No, I didn’t. That would be you misreading or misinterpreting what I’m saying. At this point though, I actually think you’re purposely creating a strawman of everything I’m saying because it’s easier for you and your lack of nuance.

        “It has a significant meaning to women.”

        But it shouldn’t.

        “Nah, you’re just a handmaiden for patriarchy.”

        Oh yes, anyone who doesn’t agree with you 100% is in collusion with men and patriarchy. If they don’t take the same stance with you, it’s not because of hours of questioning various perspectives including their own. They just want to appeal to men. Everything is always about men.

        I give up. You can’t even argue with what I’m saying. You know where to find me if you ever do decide you want to participate in a fair discussion.

        • “Intersex still means you have a sex.”

          And yet later on you say there’s only two sexes. Sigh.

          Because intersex people ARE one sex or the other. This is basic stuff here.
          I’m stating a fact. Intersex people, like all people who are ever bloody born, STILL have one sex or the other. They aren’t trans. We’re talking about trans. You’re arguing an anomaly that isn’t even relevant. That’s a fallacy.

          I said “Nothing changes your sex.” and this is how you respond?

          You’re being dismissive and seem to wish they didn’t even exist because it doesn’t fit perfectly within your male vs female narrative. Otherwise you’d be able to answer the question I asked.

          “Females having their own washrooms is necessary for our safety”

          Is there some invisible barrier blocking out the rapists that will suddenly dissipate if trans women or men are allowed in? Is it impossible to change how restrooms are set up to allow for more privacy? Is it possible to ever achieve a genderless society if we continue to treat males and females as inherently different, so much to the degree that they need to piss and shit in separate rooms?

          Men rape women. Men harm women. Men photograph women without our consent. What rock have you been living under? That’s why we have separate washrooms. It’s called privacy, or are women not allowed to have that either? Is it impossible to have a trans bathroom? You’ll do anything to shit on women who want privacy. I never said washrooms were a part of female culture.

          Maybe if you have such a limited notion of sex as you do which seems to be based only on chromosomes without taking anything else into account.

          I don’t have the limited notion. Let’s just dismiss reality. Maybe, take it up with God or something. It’s just a FACT of our human existence. There are ONLY TWO SEXES. Show me how there aren’t only two sexes.

          “You say female only space should be questioned as if we have to petition men or ask them if we can have it.”

          That’s not what I said. Not even close. Start with questioning your own opinions and listening to the questions other females are raising. Challenge yourself. Maybe then you could defend your position better. Or at least realize that things aren’t so black and white.

          It is black and white. Males are not females. So why don’t you tell me, when is female only space allowed since you seem to think we don’t deserve it unless some condition is met.

          “It has a significant meaning to women.”

          But it shouldn’t.

          That’s what right wing assholes say to women who want childcare on demand, abortion on demand. You silly wimminz wanting things! I’ll dismiss you with a handwave! You silly wimminz saying that your lives matter and your spaces matter!

          Oh and btw, female culture are those limited spaces and arts like Vagina Mono, all women colleges, radfem events that get no platformed, Michfest etc. THAT is female culture, being invaded by men and cancelled. Not the damn bathrooms.

    • One last thing. You said
      I would hope things are radically different enough so there’s not really a social distinction between people based on sex differences.

      Well, that would why we have feminism in the first place. It’s women sex that oppresses them, then gender.
      Feminism is for women. Not men. In your opinion women aren’t entitled to have any space without some approval from males. IOW, that’s not feminist.

  8. The reason ACTUAL feminists care about women’s biology is not because we have some obsession with Otherness. That would be patriarchy. Women have always been devalued and dehumanized due to their sex and gender is a part of how women are further Othered and socially marked as Lesser.

    Sex matters because rape is a women’s issue, since we know the majority of rape victims are women. Its is an MRA lie that there is such stigma over rape that men are afraid to report. I am sad to hear feminists repeat this myth. Men and boys are taken seriously when they report rape and MRAs will go as far as to make up fake rape and domestic violence claims to the authorities.

    Men spread STI’s through PIV easier than women yet women are the ones considered dirty and carriers of disease. Maternity care, abortion, PAP tests, contraceptives, lesbianism, sexual harassment, groping, rape, prostitution, unpaid domestic work and greater vulnerability to STIs are all women’s issues and you are a damn moron if you argue otherwise.

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